BW LEGAL WORLD NOVEMBER 2021

` 300 I NOVEMBER 2021

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INSIDE
LEGAL
LUMINARIES

Doyens of the legal
ecosystem share

exclusive insights on
what drives the way
forward for the sector

BW Legal World
40 Under 40
Winners

Meet India’s top lawyers
and legal influencers of

2020

“HONEST HARD
WORK IS THE ONLY WAY

TO ACHIEVE AND
SUSTAIN SUCCESS”

HEMANT KUMAR, Group General Counsel, Larsen & Toubro
BW Legal World Top 100 General Counsel 2020 awardee

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` 300 I NOVEMBER 2021

www.bwlegalworld.com Raian N. Bahram N. Vakil
Zia Mody Karanjawala Pinky Anand

Sidharth
Luthra

Jyoti Sagar Lalit Bhasin Rajiv K. Luthra Sudhir Mishra U.K. Chaudhary

LEGAL LUMINARIES

Doyens of the legal ecosystem share exclusive insights
on what drives the way forward for the sector

Cyril Shroff C. Raj Kumar

K. T. S. Tulsi

Ajay Bahl

Mukesh Butani

Geeta Luthra

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WINNERS
BW LEGAL
WORLD 40
UNDER 40

Meet India’s Top Lawyers
and Legal Influencers
of 2020

From top row (L-R): Abhishek Dadoo, Anshul Prakash,
Anuj Berry, Anupam Alok, Apar Gupta, Ashwarya
Sinha,AvnishSharma Row2:BharatChugh,Divyakant
Lahoti, Faisal Sherwani, Harsh Walia, Ishani Chandra,
Kanika Atul Premnarayen, Kritika Krishnamurthy
Row 3: Manisha Chaudhary, Manisha Shroff, Natashaa
Shroff, Naval Chopra Row 4: Nawneet Vibhaw, Nitesh

Jain, Rishab Gupta, Roshan
Thomas Row 5: Sai Sushanth,
Sagar Chandra, Sheetal Kapur,
Shivli Katyayan, Shubhangi
Garg, Shweta Bansal, Siddharth
Srivastava Row6: SidharthSethi,
SudiptaBhattacharjee,Siddharth
Batra, Tariq Khan, Tarun Nangia
Bottom Row: Pallavi Pratap,
Petal Chandhok, Mini Gautam,
Mishi Choudhary, Mohit Gogia,
Poonam Verma



EDITOR-IN-CHIEF’S NOTE

A MAKEOVER FOR THE BETTER

ANNURAG BATRA AS NOBLE PROFESSIONS GO, the legal fraternity has always held
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not held up to the high standards and expectations, overall, the strength
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At the BW Businessworld Group, we have deeply engaged with the
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We now turn our focus to bringing out a monthly premium magazine
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Our next issue features this year’s winners along with a host of deeply
engaging and insightful features.

We hope that this inaugural issue will provide you an engaging window
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World to engage deeply and consistently with all the stakeholders and
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spectrum.

7 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

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VOL. 01, ISSUE 01 NOVEMBER 2021

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8 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



CONTENTS

VOLUME 01, ISSUE 01 NOVEMBER 2021

Conversations 46 In Conversation 100 COVER STORY: Hemant
Kumar, Group General Counsel,
BW Legal World unplugs Jyoti Sagar, Founder, J. Sagar Larsen & Toubro Limited
luminaries in the legal profession, Associates
who reminisce on their career shares his awe-inspiring journey, from the
path, muse on the Covid-induced 50 In Conversation defence counsel in the Bhagalpur blindings case
disruptions and the way forward to a top notch general counsel – and his mantra
Dr Lalit Bhasin, Managing that “a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor”
14 In Conversation Partner, Bhasin & Company and
President, SILF Cover design by DINESH S. BANDUNI
Cyril S. Shroff, Managing Cover photograph by RITESH SHARMA
Partner, Cyril Amarchand 56 In Conversation
Mangaldas
U. K. Chaudhary, Founder, U. K
16 In Conversation Chaudhary & Associates

Geeta Luthra, Senior Advocate 60 In Conversation

20 In Conversation Saurabh Kripal, Senior Advocate,
Supreme Court
Pinky Anand, Senior Advocate
64 In Conversation
22 In Conversation
Sidharth Luthra, Senior
Madhavi Goradia Divan, Advocate, Supreme Court of India
Additional Solicitor General in the
Supreme Court of India 68 In Conversation

26 In Conversation K.T.S. Tulsi, Senior Advocate,
Supreme Court of India &
Raian N. Karanjawala, Managing Rajya Sabha member
Partner, Karanjawala & Co.
74 In Conversation
28 In Conversation
Sudhir Mishra, Founder &
Rajiv K. Luthra, Founder & Managing Partner, Trust Legal
Managing Partner, L&L Partners
78 In Conversation
31 In Conversation
Dr C. Raj Kumar, Vice Chancellor,
Ajay Bahl, Co-founder & Jindal Global University
Managing Partner,
AZB & Partners 84 In Conversation

36 In Conversation Rabindra Jhunjhunwala, Senior
Partner in Corporate Law
Bahram N. Vakil, Partner, Practice, Khaitan & Co.
AZB & Partners

42 In Conversation

Mukesh Butani, Founder, BMR
Legal and Chair, IFA India

10 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

88 In Conversation Winner Profiles 148 Mohit Gogia 174 Tariq Khan
150 Navneet Vibhaw
Zia Mody, Corporate lawyer, 116 Abhishek Dadoo 152 Pallavi Pratap 176 Tarun Nangia
Founding Partner, AZB & Partners 118 Anshul Prakash 154 Petal Chandhok
120 Anupam Alok 156 Poonam Verma 178 Column
92 In Conversation 122 Apar Gupta 158 S. Sai Shushanth
124 Ashwarya Sinha 160 Shivli Katyayan Roma Priya
Seema Jhingan, Founding 126 Bharat Chugh 162 Shubhangi Garg
Partner, Lex Counsel Law Offices 128 Divyakant Lahoti 164 Shweta Bansal The Founder of Burgeon Law,
130 Faisal Sherwani 166 Siddharth Batra writes of the challenges that
94 In Conversation 132 Harsh Walia 168 Sidharth Sethi the pandemic has thrown up
134 Ishani Chandra 170 Siddharth for lawyers and litigators
Yudhist Narain Singh, Senior 136 Kanika Atul
Parner, YNS & Associates Srivastava 182 The Last Word
Premnarayen
98 Top Book 172 Sudipta Shinoj Koshy, Partner, L&L
138 Kritika Partners and Purvi Khanna,
Recommendations Bhattacharjee Associate, L&L Partners, talk
Krishnamurthy of the contentious retrospec-
Find out what the best minds in tive tax and the implications
the legal profession are reading of the 2021 amendment to
the Act that had enforced it
104 In Depth

How the Indian legal system is
coping with the disruptions
thrown up by the pandemic

112 BW Legal World 140 Manisha TOTAL NO. OF PAGES
INCLUDING COVER 184
40 Under 40 Chaudhary
Winners 2020
142 Manisha Shroff
114 The Jury 144 Mini Gautam
146 Mishi Choudhary
A Cut Above the Rest: The
eminent panel that picked
the winners

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marketingdepartmentofBW Businessworld.Also,theinsertsbeingdistributedalongwithsomecopiesofthemagazineareadvertorials/advertisements.

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11 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021





Cyril S. Shroff, NAVIGATING
Managing Partner YOUR LAW
of Cyril Amarchand FIRM THROUGH
Mangaldas, and often COVID-19 AND
regarded as the “M&A BEYOND

king of India”, on 1. Over communication: It is significantly better than under communication. It is
important leadership the key duty of leadership of all organizations and especially people organizations
lessons distilled down like law firms to communicate and give confidence to their teams and people albeit
to 10 key aspects for with a tinge of realism. It is a hard balance to strike between being realistic— sharing
the bad news as well as the good news—and continuing to be brutally optimistic.
navigating through
Covid-19 and beyond 2. Pain and Relief: Pain should travel from top to down and relief needs to go from
bottom to up. It means, the people in the most senior positions in the organization
within a law firm—the equity partners or the senior leaders—should bear the most
pain, and the junior people whether they’re associates or staff members should bear
the least pain. And when relief starts coming in, when things get better than you
expected then it should start going from bottom to up.

3.Remote working works: And a part of it is here to stay forever even beyond when
this whole pandemic ends. In a post covid world, it’s going to be about 50% remote
working and 50% in office. This is going to have profound implications on a number
of things, including office space technology, how you hire, it’s going to impact and
populate down everything.

Compiled by 4. Having diverse counter cyclical practices is helpful and helps in reducing
Ashima Ohri pain: To have a broader range of practices, like transactional practices, advisory
practices and contentious practices—some of which are counter cyclical is a wise
thing to do.

5. Cultural fragmentation and emotional alienation are real issues: These are
far more severe at lower levels in the organization. Your associates are feeling the
most alienated and from a leadership point of view, you have to take care of not only
the physical health but also the emotional health and mental health.

6. The post-Covid world will be very different in some material ways: There
will be hybrid operating models that is going to result in a new social contract.
A new social contract between the organization and its people. It’s going to have
various forms of commercial arrangements with different levels of roles and
responsibilities as well. And this aspect is going to be reinvented. There will
be a lot of new practice areas and sector focuses. Law firms will become more

14 | BW LEGALWORLD | November 2021

COGITATIONS OF LEGAL MINDS

IN THE NEXT
COUPLE
OF YEARS
THERE WILL
BE TREMEN-
DOUS INNO-
VATION IN
THE ACCESS
TO JUSTICE
SPACE

general business advisory such as they arrived in 2020 and that is forcing and 10. Business development will be-
will need to hire a lot of non-lawyers, will continue to force more and more
for example, people who are fluent innovation. come more vertical rather than hori-
in technology. Further, the pecking zontal: If somebody knows you already
order of all firms and brands may get 8. Globalisation of the law and the from before they are likely to trust you
disrupted. It’s like you could take a can trade: There will be a great increase more than actually trusting somebody
of beans and turn it upside down and in the role of networks and collabora- new. As a law firm and service provid-
then turn it up again. The impact of tion. More networks, more friendships, ers, one will have to go to clients with
the stirring of the pot will fall differ- more informal alliances where people solutions and not just be on the back
entially on different firms. One may will see the need for reaching out and foot trying to solve a problem when it
go up or down but will not be at the holding hands. From an internal law- arises. One will need to say, ‘I know you
same place as they were before it all yers point of view, this is going to mean have a severe debt problem with bank
started. So the post-covid world will that one will need to be far more cultur- now, this is how we can help you re-
be significantly different in material ally adaptable and flexible, and being structure, or maybe if you did an M&A
way, and a wise leader of the firm will ready to deal with different demands transaction in this space, which could
try and imagine what that would be and different cultures. look something like this and worth ex-
and be ready for it. ploring.’ Thus, law practice will become
9. Brands will matter: Because when more front footed and less reactive to
7. Great innovation will occur, both you look into a market from outside, problem solving and will be a bit more
you don’t know the nuances of who ex- business problem solving.
in terms of the operating model, as actly is good at what. One will go by the
well as in the access to justice: In brands that have filtered through into This is an edited version of the keynote address
the next couple of years there will be the international reputation space. So, given by Cyril Shroff at the ‘BW Legal World
tremendous innovation in the access brands will matter, and they will matter Business Confluence and Legal Dialogue: The
to justice space. What has happened more than they did before. Business World Has Changed; Will Legal Ser-
because of the crisis is that 2030 has vices Lead or Follow?’ held in September, 2020.
The full address may be viewed at https://www.
youtube.com/watch?v=YxIshUPuSoo

Photograph by Subhabrata Das 15 | BW LEGALWORLD | November 2021

‘WOMEN HAVE A
RIGHT TO DREAM,
AND A RIGHT
TO HAVE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO
HAVE THEIR DREAMS
COME TRUE’

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

At the BW Legal BW Legal World initiated a Dialogue of
World Dialogue with Change on International Women’s Day
2021, to bring real and enduring change,
Women Leaders in one conversation at a time. BW Legal World
Law, Senior Advocate in association with BW Businessworld,
Geeta Luthra throws hosted 50 women in law on 6 March, 2021,
at its virtual conference titled Gearing up
down the gauntlet for India@75: What Women Want –A BW
to the ‘Skin-to-skin’ Legal World Dialogue with Women Leaders
ruling that exposes in Law where Ashima Ohri spoke to one of
antiquated prejudices India’s most formidable women litigators,
that continue to rear Senior Advocate Geeta Luthra and sought
her views on why unsavoury remarks and
their ugly heads in victim-blaming continue to be an issue for
rape cases even as women in India@75.
India celebrates 75
years of Independence

16 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

I AGREE, THE JUDGMENT IS WRONG. I
FEEL THAT THE JUDGMENT NEEDED TO
BE APPEALED AGAINST VERY URGENTLY”

The skin-to-skin judgment is a to say that this debate may be new to of Appeal after much debate in the
India and even though some people two judgments on the skin-to-skin
good example of deep-rooted have said that this is a settled mat- touch repelled the argument that
ter by various judgments, it’s actu- skin-to-skin touch needs physical
prejudices that continue to mar ally not! So, obviously defence coun- contact.
sel being defence counsel will raise
the spirit of equality for women their novel arguments. They said, I’m sure our Supreme Court will
when it says contact or when it says, come to the same conclusion. I
and rape victims in India. How does physical touch, it’s really talking of agree, the judgment is wrong. I feel
the skin-to-skin contact and skin- that the judgment needed to be ap-
one fight this mindset? to-skin touch. Now that’s not really pealed against very urgently and the
Let’s talk about the skin-to-skin the necessary or logical argument or laws need to be set down once and
judgment for a bit because there’s conclusion. for all. But I also believe that pro-
been a lot of protest about it. Media, priety demands us to be restrained
social media, which is now a big space Similar matters went on in the when we start speaking badly of a
for the dissemination of information, United Kingdom Court of Appeal Judge, because the judgment may be
has also been very active on the skin- where in one case there was someone misplaced but you can’t, then troll a
to-skin judgment. On behalf of the touching and groping a person on her judge for it. So, this is one aspect.
National Commission of Women, breast, and the other case involved
I have represented in the Supreme somebody putting their hand in the I definitely do not agree with her
Court, challenging the judgment that track pant of a girl. Again, the Court viewpoint but while I don’t agree with
such an interpretation would not be her viewpoint, I also know that I have
in keeping with the spirit of the legis-
lation. So, this is one aspect.

Now, while I say this, I also want

17 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

an avenue of appeal and I will take away their strength and their right easily because he was a juvenile. Now,

recourse to it. to make a decision about dignity and all these are issues, where we need to

Further, there are two kinds of rape their mental and physical happiness. have a considered study and policy

cases that are coming, rape by a per- This thought is like the Khap taking stakeholders, taking young-

son known or unknown, where there Panchayat deciding that no, these sters, seeing their ages, seeing their

is no past history of any friendship. two people belonging to the same maturity, seeing the dichotomy be-

And there is a rape, where people village cannot marry when the Su- tween the cities, and those who are

are friendly with each other, have preme Court in several judgments being brought up maybe in a more

been having premarital relations, has come down so heavily on these predicted environment in villages.

and there is a promise to marry. Now matters. This is part and parcel of Under the Indian Majority Act,

both kinds of rape or allegations of the same mindset that our girls are girls are considered major at 18 and

rape or trials of rape or question of too innocent. And therefore, we are boys at 21. And therefore, also say the

bail are completely different. But it the arbiters of their rights. Now that Hindu Marriage Act says the age of

does appear that ‘will you marry her’ cannot be the way. The same mind- marriage for a girl is 18 and a boy is

will be a taboo question in the future set allowed adultery to be an offence, 21. Time has come that we examine –

and perhaps rightly so. because then women’s bodies were is this discriminatory of women? Is it

A question that can be asked when treated like a chattel. discriminatory of men?

you are looking at pure criminality – There are two debates raging in Has it got a mindset that women

either it is something that deserves the country at the same time. One should be younger, so that perhaps

bail or it is something

that doesn’t deserve I WOULD WANT WOMEN TO BE ABLE TO
bail. But just because

the petitioner who is a DREAM ... THE FACT IS THAT YOU HAVE
boy, making a story that

it is a girlfriend-boy-

A RIGHT TO DREAM,”friend relationship gone
sour and that we are not

marrying for that reason may not be debate which says, lower the age they may be dominated? I can’t see

taken on its face value. of consent because young girls and what is the rationale for thinking that

Now comes the other aspect about boys, particularly in cities, are having women would mature not at the same

this recent discussion on, for exam- chances to meet each other, to fall in time as boys because very frequently

ple, somebody being told that you love, even before they are 18. Then it’s said that women mature earlier.

can’t change your religion to marry. the other debate is our girls are ma- Then the question here is, why should

Now, the moment, a person is a ma- turing and boys are maturing earlier. one be 21 and the other be 18?

jor then they have a right to make a Should the Juvenile Justice Act, not When the age of majority is 18

decision, whom to put in power in protect people who commit heinous years, why should both not be able to

the government, and whom to elect. crimes because, ultimately, they are marry at the same age? Whether it’s

If I have that right, if I have a right maturing? 18 or any other age that may be set

to go on the road, drive and be a risk So, if you are thinking that they are down. Most of the world keeps it at a

to myself and to society, I am then maturing then to say that they are standard 18 years of age.

considered sane enough to be able to not mature enough when it comes

make a decision about myself. to matters of their bodily integrity, What would be your advice to

If I can make a decision about my would again be a contradiction. And women of today and tomorrow?

country, then I can definitely make a that’s why when you look at the Ju- I would want women to be able to

decision about myself. The argument venile Justice Act, when you look at dream. Whether they get married or

can only be, let’s educate our women liabilities or taking away the bar of they don’t get married, it is immate-

more. It cannot be that let’s take away juveniles being tried for say offence rial. The fact is that you have a right to

this right from our women. We have of rape in cases like that of Nirbhaya, dream, and a right to have the oppor-

to empower them, not disempower where some people say that the per- tunity to have your dreams come true.

them. Our job is to educate and to son who did the most heinous act was And that opportunity for no reason

empower them. Our job is not to take the person who got away the most should be denied to anyone.

18 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



Pinky Anand, senior “DON’T
advocate and former ALLOW
YOURSELF
Additional Solicitor TO BE
General of India talks to STEREOTYPED”
Ashima Ohri, Managing
Editor, BW Legal World For a lawyer who epitomises excellence and is an inspiration for all—where
did this illustrious journey begin?
about her indomitable I guess I was destined to be a lawyer. I was always inspired by law, but having
journey in the legal graduated in Economics from Lady Sri Ram College, Delhi, I logically gravitated
towards an MBA and joined XLRI Jamshedpur, but the charm of an independent
profession after joining profession and being a professional brought me back into the fold of law, and I’ve
XLRI for MBA and how never looked back. The journey has been incredible and extremely interesting.

she would like to see First Woman Secretary of DUSU (Delhi University Student Union), an ac-
industriousness and a tive debater, athlete, host of a radio show, and a singer—how did you don
deep-seated curiosity so many hats with such ease? Please tell us more about your student life in
about the workings of India and then at Harvard.
the law in the new crop I guess I have always been a multi-tasker and will always remain so. I do enjoy
activity and that too diverse activity. Of course, fate has had its hand in my life
of lawyers as much as anybody else’s. My contribution was picking up the opportunities
that came my way.
Interview by
Ashima Ohri My student life has been exhilarating at all times. I wish I could return to
those days. I enjoyed my days in all my institutions from school to college to
the Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. The lessons learnt there, the com-
panionship, the learning, the growing up, the playgrounds and the exposure
to student diversity…they have all made me into what I am today. I continue
to nurture these relationships.

Being the Secretary of DUSU was one of the most exhilarating experiences
and was my first true exposure to public life in a strength of almost one and a
half lakh students. Elections, campaigning, and being part of DUSU taught
me a lot about co-existence, leadership and public interaction.

Harvard Law School was a dream come true, from my early student days in
law, I was motivated to go for higher education and Harvard was the premier
Ivy League law school. Added to that, I got the INLAKS scholarship, which is
one of the most prestigious scholarships. Harvard broadened my horizons and
taught me a new learning. My most memorable spots include Langdon Library,
one of the finest law libraries in the world, the underground tunnels, Ames

20 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

LAW CANONI-
CALLY IS FULL
OF HURDLES,
EVERY DAY IS
A CHALLENGE,
EVERY HEAR-
ING IS AN EX-
AMINATION,
I’VE JUST TAK-
EN IT ONE DAY
AT A TIME

Hall which was my hostel and the law sional and personal work ethics. tics that make a lawyer.
school itself and each and every nook
and cranny of the campus. How did you power through hurdles What helps you unwind when you
that came in your path? are not working?
Who are the people who have in- Law canonically is full of hurdles, eve- I get bored easily so I need a slew of ac-
ry day is a challenge, every hearing is tivities. I love to read and write, right
spired you the most in this profes- an examination, I’ve just taken it one now I enjoy my yoga and my training,
day at a time, but I don’t take no for and spend time with my daughter’s
sion and how? an answer. dog. I do enjoy golf and swimming if
My first senior under whom I appren- I am lucky enough to get the time to.
ticed, K.K. Luthra, was a huge inspira- What are some of the fundamental
tion to me. Justice B. N. Kirpal, Justice essentials to be a successful litigat- From the treasure trove of your
A. S. Anand are some of the names I ing lawyer in India? experiences, what is one piece of
have always looked up to. The current I believe one of the most necessary advice you would give to women
Attorney General, K. K. Venugopal, characteristics that lawyers need to in law who feel the way to the top
with whom I have had the pleasure of have is tenacity, the passion and the continues to be a journey through
being associated during my govern- sheer will to push through a matter. labyrinths and mazes?
ment tenure, Soli Sorabjee, who was After that, hard work, a proclivity Don’t allow yourself to be stereotyped,
my good friend and a fantastic neigh- towards reading and research and a have the confidence that if you prove
bour and Fali Nariman’s inimitable natural curiosity are all characteris- your mettle, others will see it too.
style and his eidetic memory have all
had major influences in my profes-

21 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

“DISPROPORTIONATE
COVERAGE BY MEDIA
TAKES AWAY TIME
FROM IMPORTANT
ISSUES”

Madhavi Goradia Divan, What motivated Madhavi Divan to take up law as a profession?
Additional Solicitor General I started effectively in 1995. I went to Bombay in 1994 with a law degree which
in the Supreme Court of I got from the UK. But frankly, not being from a family of lawyers, I didn’t
India speaks to Krishnendra know the ropes, I didn’t know how to go about it. Frankly, I wasn’t even sure
Joshi, Editororial Lead, if I really wanted to practice law. So, I went to Bombay with the idea of just
BW Legal World about her giving it a shot and seeing where it took me but I wasn’t fixed in my idea that
journey in law, need for I was necessarily going to last it out in practice so it was really something I
ethical journalism, diversity chanced upon.
and inclusivity in the legal
profession, the future of I was very lucky to get into a good chamber in Bombay through a family
litigation in India, among friend. I got into the chamber of Mr Dwarkadas who was very kind and a very
other things good senior to me. It took a while to really get into the flow of things because
the Bombay Bar and Counsel Practice particularly has a sort of unstructured
Interview by kind of life is to begin with. Juniors simply don’t have work and me particularly
Krishnendra Joshi because I knew, I didn’t belong to Bombay in that sense I was coming from
outside. I hadn’t worked in a law firm; I hadn’t gone to law school in India so
I didn’t know many young lawyers. So, to that extent, it was harder finding
my feet. We may get a drafting brief on one day and then for a long time we
may not get another drafting brief. We may get a small appearance today and
nothing for a few more days. So, it was a very unstructured, unpredictable and
uncertain sort of beginning coupled with the fact that I wasn’t sure myself
whether I was going to last it out. So, it began like that frankly with no great
expectations, and then I think somewhere along the way I Obviously I just
got quite hooked because I was just enjoying what I did.

How do you see litigation shaping up in the future?
I think the pandemic has taught us some very, very important lessons and
something that we are not able to get in the near term. I think it is going to
transform the way the system works. Of course, I believe that there is noth-
ing like the real court and physical hearing and real appearances. There is no
substitute for that particularly in cases which require an extended argument
and which require that level of persuasion. I don’t think virtual courts can re-
ally substitute. I think the virtual court system can certainly supplement the
physical courts that could be a great advantage in the future as well.

Then there’s a lot of what I would describe as housekeeping work which can be

22 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

YES, I SHOULD CER-
TAINLY HOPE SO. I CAN
TELL YOU THAT WHEN I
WAS A FEW YEARS INTO
THE BAR, FRANKLY
IN ALL THESE YEARS I
HAVEN’T HAD A WOMAN
MENTOR AT ALL THAT I
COULD SAY THAT THIS
IS SOMEONE WHO HAS REALLY SCALED
THE HEIGHTS IN THE PROFESSION AND
ALSO MANAGED A FAMILY

eliminated very quickly and efficiently course that we have seen how lawyers bar to see, you appear before a differ-
by using technology. I mean, now we from anywhere in the country can ent set of judges and that it makes for
have E- filing which is seamless and appear in court. So, sitting in Delhi, a pan-Indian Bar so I think there’s a
very easy and it can be done any time sitting right here in my chair, I can great advantage to that.
of the day so there is no constraint to appear in Manipur or in Assam or in
physically go somewhere and be there Gujarat or any other part of the coun- You are among the only three
during office hours. So, e- filings and try. That’s something which is really
small routine applications like if you quite fantastic because it also makes women to be appointed as the
remember court 1 in the Chief Justice’s for a Pan Indian Bar at a certain level.
court on any day of the week, there it’s improved mobility, it’s improved ac- Additional Solicitor General in the
would be just long queues of lawyers cess to justice, both from the litigants’
jostling for space to mention a mat- point of view, because then he can save Supreme Court. What are your
ter. Now, all those things can be taken on flying the lawyer down to Delhi or
care of through a virtual system which wherever else the matter is. It saves views on gender diversity and in-
frees up the court’s time and physical costs if he has his choice of lawyer from
space as well for the real arguments to wherever he is situated. Also, from a clusivity in our profession? Do you
take place. So, I see it as supplement- lawyer’s point of view I think it gives
ing and making the system much more you access to so many different courts think times are changing now?
efficient. in the country and that’s actually very Yes, I should certainly hope so. I can tell
enriching because you meet a different you that when I was a few years into the
The other important thing is of Bar, frankly in all these years I haven’t
had a woman mentor at all that I could
say that this is someone who has really
scaled the heights in the profession and
also managed a family. Very difficult to
find women who have done that. So,

Photo courtesy: Google 23 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

THE NEXT EDITION OF MY BOOK ON
MEDIA LAW IS IN THE PIPELINE AND I’M
ALSO TRYING TO WORK SOMETHING ON
THE INSOLVENCY BANKRUPTCY CODE.
SO THAT IS A LOT OF TIME SPENT ON
LEGAL WRITING. I THINK MY INTERESTS
ARE ALSO WELL BEYOND THAT

I think yes, times are changing. They course, I would say that there is a democracy at the end of the day.
better change and we’d like to see more right to comment even while a case is
representation on merit. It’s not as if pending. But of course, the reportage In the midst of all the heavy mat-
women should be just given token rep- has to be balanced and fair and there
resentation, I think that could be very has to be a balance between access to ters, do you still get time to pursue
counterproductive. But it’s important justice for even the under trial and
that when there are women of merit that’s a right under Article 21 and your hobbies?
and if they are on even keel with their 19(1)(a) right of the press and more I spend enough time at work and I
male counterparts, you must make the importantly for the public to know. will say that I do spend some time in
effort to pick up anybody who repre- legal writing as well. The next edi-
sents a diversity, whether it’s gender or But of course, the way we see things, tion of my book on media law is in the
any other kind of diversity. sometimes it’s serious character as- pipeline and I’m also trying to work
sassination and vilification. I’m sure something on insolvency bankruptcy
What are your views on media media organizations know when they code. So that is a lot of time spent on
have entered into that sort of forbidden legal writing. I think my interests
trial? How must we draw a line be- zone. Whether it amounts to contempt are also well beyond that. I’m try-
or obstruction of justice or not is anoth- ing to read Arthashastra. It’s such a
tween ethical investigative jour- er matter, but I think every media or- shame and a pity that unfortunately
ganization knows when it has crossed in our education system, we are not
nalism and the media witch hunt? the line. The one point that I would like exposed to any Indian classics.
Even though in India we don’t have a to make here is that every time the me-
separate right for the press or the me- dia has very disproportionate cover- What will be your one message to
dia it all emanates from Article 19(1) age on a particular issue, it is ultimately
(a). But at the same time, ultimately, taking away time from a news story, young lawyers and future lawyers
the media in terms of whether news- which may just have more importance
papers, or the broadcast media, or even from the public’s point of view, whether of India?
social media platforms, are ultimately it’s a serious issue, starvation deaths or I just say to younger people; this is
trustees of the public because they are farmers’ suicides or any issue of impor- a profession which takes a while.
the eyes and ears for the people. There- tance on international relations—you One needs to be able to soldier on
fore, there is a duty on these organiza- are taking time away from that and and hang in there for long to be re-
tions to discharge their duties as trus- that would lead to dumbing down of ally able to enjoy their practiceYou
tees of the public in that sense. really need long years of very hard
work and commitment for things to
When it comes to media trial of grow. So, I just say, hang in there!

24 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



‘IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW
THE WEAKNESSES OF
YOUR CASE, BUT AN
OVER-EMPHASIS ON THE
SAME CAN BE DETRIMENTAL
TO THE END RESULT’

Raian N. Karanjawala, Mr Karanjawala, rewinding time, please allow us a peek into your illustrious
Managing Partner,
journey in law. Where did this journey begin, who were your mentors, and are
Karanjawala & Co. talks to
Ashima Ohri, Managing there any goals that remain to be achieved?
I joined Mr Pravin Parekh’s office in 1979 and worked with him till February 1983.
Editor, BW Legal World about There I met my wife Manik, got married in April 1982, and thereafter, in February
his formidable success in 1983, we both left to start our own Firm.

law, experiences that have In so far as to who my mentors were, I can best describe the situation by what Fali
been close to his heart, and Nariman had once told me (he was the person who put me in Mr Pravin Parekh’s
his thoughts on legislative office) when I was at his house. I had just joined Pravinbhai and I remember he took
changes in recent years that me aside for a minute and said, “Listen, now that you have joined Pravinbhai, I just
want to tell you one thing. Everybody is too busy, nobody has time to teach you, you
have been monumental havetofindwaystomakeyourselfuseful”. Thiswassomethingthatstayedwithme
in reforming India’s legal and today when I answer the question as to who my mentors were, I cannot really
framework across sectors put my finger and say this one person was my mentor. What I did have were many
mentors because when we were in Pravin Parekh’s Firm, we had an extremely busy
Interview by scheduleof workandeveryseconddaywewerehavingconferencesandappearing
Ashima Ohri along with some of the best legal minds of that time and probably of any time in
India. So, on a given day, we would either be having a conference with Mr Fali Nari-
man or Mr Soli Sorabjee or Mr V.M. Tarkunde (my father-in-law) or Dr Y.S Chitale
or Mr Anil Divan or Mr P.R. Mridul or Mr Ashok Desai or, in later years, a young Mr
KapilSibal. Itwasthisconstantinteractionwiththemthatturnedouttobethereal
learning experience, and in a sense, therefore, I think it would be fair to say that all
those mentioned above have been, along with many others who I may have omit-
ted to remember, the real mentors, who actually helped us become, what we are.

In so far as the goals left to be achieved, they are fundamentally two: (i) to see that
the Firm in the future finds itself in an even more secure position than it is today;
and (ii) that both my children, along with our other Partners, take the Firm forward.

What helped you emerge as a leader in your industry and what advice would

you have for others who want to set off in a similar direction?
Frankly, when I look back on my life (I have said it before, and I will say it again), I
feel that a large part of my success is because I have that one quality that Napoleon
looked for in all his generals. Before he made anyone a general, he would ask one

26 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

I THINK THE
INSOLVENCY AND
BANKRUPTCY
CODE (IBC) IS AN
IMPORTANT
REFORM IN INDIA,”

last question “Is he lucky?” been the order of the day and the one Your message to our readers?
thing that all of us have learnt is that
A spate of legislative changes in re- a lot of time can be saved, and a lot of The one suggestion that I do have for
cent years have been monumental work can be achieved by virtual inter- all young lawyers is something that by
in reforming India’s legal framework action. observing Kapil Sibal, I learnt for my-
across all sectors. Please highlight self. I always wondered what was the
a recent development concerning An experience, case or person that cause for Kapil’s almost supernatural
your practice that has positively im- rise at such a young age and when I ana-
pacted the industry? left a lasting impression on you? lyse it in my mind, I feel that it was the
I think the Insolvency and Bankruptcy If I were to pick one case or person that fact that he always approached the case
Code (IBC) is an important reform made an impression on me, it would be with a certain optimism. He did not
in India’s legal framework and whilst my client Mahesh Gosavi. He had filed spend too much time worrying about
positively impacting the industry, it has a case against Nilangekar Patil (the the weak points of the case, though he
also had a very positive impact on our then Chief Minister of Maharashtra) didmakeanoteofthem. Healwaysput
Firm as we, along with Mr Rajiv Lu- alleging that he had interfered in the forward, in conference and in court, the
thra’s Firm, successfully appeared for process of his daughter getting admis- positive aspects of his case and would
ArcelorMittal in the takeover of Essar sion to a medical college. I still remem- push them as hard and as much as he
Steel, which I think till date is the larg- ber sitting him in my small office as it could.
est big-ticket transaction the IBC has then was, Mahesh looking at me across
seen and also along with AZB, my Firm my desk and saying, “You see Sir, if he This was an attitude that years later
appeared for Tata Steel in the Bhushan (Mr Nilangekar Patil) thinks that he I found my friend Mukul Rohatgi also
Steel case, which was the first success- is a big man and he can do whatever adopting, and it is this observation of
fully concluded matter before the IBC. he wants, and that we are only small both of them, that has often led me to
middle-class people, and can do noth- say in my interviews that a young law-
How has the legal services industry ing, then he is mistaken”. This to me yer should not spend too much of his
transformed in the past year? has been the epitome of the spirit of time in finding the weak points of his
Obviously, virtual appearances have a small man standing up against the case. He must seek out the strengths
system. of his case, maximise them as much as
he can, and put them forward. It is im-
portant to know the weaknesses of your
case, but an over-emphasis on the same
can be detrimental to the end result. A
positive can-do attitude somehow gives
confidence to the client and makes
them more attracted to the lawyer at
hand.

27 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

SEEDING IDEAS LIKE
WIMPY’S FAMOUS
AND FIRST VEG
BURGER AND THE PRO
KABADDI LEAGUE

In conversation with Dr Rajiv K Luthra articled with his father post his retirement from Air Force; went
Annurag Batra, Chairman on to become the youngest ever registered Article in the history of The Insti-
and Editor-in-Chief of tute of Chartered Accountants of India; he has an adventure company called
BW Businessworld and IBEX Expeditions; Wimpy’s famous and first veg burger was also his brain-
exchange4media groups child; he is one of the founders of the Pro Kabaddi League; a director in the
and Ashima Ohri, Managing Paani Foundation and the founder of the law firm that has been ranked Law
Editor of BW Legal World— Firm of the Year 2009 globally by a renowned publication; and has been an in-
Rajiv K. Luthra, Founder tegral part of the iconic M&A transaction back when Coca-Cola bought Parle.
& Managing Partner of L&L
Partners, formerly known How does one make all these things happen as a first-gen lawyer?
as Luthra & Luthra Law Rajiv K Luthra narrates or should one say vividly paints the story of his childhood
Offices, talks about setting as the son of an Indian Air Force officer commissioned in 1949, who was also a
sails alone in the early 90s qualified chartered accountant. It is under his tutelage that Luthra became one
and building what has come of the youngest articled clerks of the time. Luthra mentions how a chance meet-
to be known today as one ing with an MIT-US returned entrepreneur at the ripe age of 15 years led him
of the pre-eminent top tier to become an agent for the businessman to help sell his unique product that we
corporate law firms of the now know as inverters. While living in Anand Niketan in those days, Luthra sold
country. Here are some many inverters to the shopkeepers in Vasant Vihar, to his family that resulted in
interesting highlights of lots of money in commission. Not even 16 years old, that’s where his story started.
the video interview. The full However, the story took a sharp turn when Luthra realized Chartered Accountancy
interview is available at www. wasn’t for him. He says, “Sorry to all the Chartered Accountants listening to this or
bwlegalworld.com aspiring Chartered Accountants and my younger brother—who was a gold medal-
list in the Asian Games in the US—is a chartered accountant, running in his own
Interview by firm… I find the most boring activity any human can ever do is auditing!” Luthra
Ashima Ohri felt all he was checking was what people were doing wrong and adding no value.
As the search for his true calling continued, in 1979, at the age of 21, Luthra along
with two of his adventure-loving friends registered a partnership called IBEX
Expeditions, which was the first pure adventure travel company of India and is
today in the top 100 adventure travel companies in the world as per the National
Geographic. Luthra subsequently also went on to become the first director of Inter-
national Amusements Limited, which happened to own Appu Ghar at the age of 22-
23. “I still remember Mr Rajiv Gandhi, his first official assignment as prime minister
was to inaugurate Appu Ghar,” adds Luthra. Then he took on the role of a finance
director of Wimpy Hamburgers India Private Limited. During all this time, Luthra

28 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

I HAVE NEVER, EVER
LOOKED AT SOME-
THING AS IT IS THE
END OF THE WORLD.
FOR ME, LIFE IS ALL
ABOUT EXPERI-
ENCES. LIFE IS ALL
ABOUT AS MANY EX-
PERIENCES AS I CAN
GET. EVEN THE BAD
EXPERIENCES. I’VE HAD ONE RECENTLY.
AGAIN, I THANKED EVERYBODY THAT
MADE ME LIVE A FULLER LIFE.

continued doing a lot of tax work and are still with the firm,” shares Luthra. McKinsey India. I knew him from the
was not a lawyer, yet. He had rights to There’s never a dull moment with Rajiv Harvard Business School. After I set up
audience up to the Income Tax Appel- Luthra. But behind that witty exterior my law firm, I realized I really learned
late Tribunal. He even won a case for a and jolly nature is a seasoned profes- no law. I went for seven summers to
former Vice Chief of Air Staff whom the sional. On being asked about the idea Harvard Law School, to learn project
Prime Minister of India, at that time, behind hiring the consultancy firm finance, to learn M&A…So, when I was
Mrs Gandhi wanted to be penalized. McKenzie to structure his law firm in around 51, I said, “Adil, what should be
Even though the particular case was 2008-09 and how Rajiv Luthra would the next steps? He said—one, give them
not appealed to the High Court, Luthra describe himself, he says, “I have nev- specific tasks to do; two, give them
realized that cases would always be ap- er, ever looked at something as it is powers; three, don’t look over their
pealed to a higher court where he had the end of the world. For me, life is all shoulder; and four watch them after a
no rights of audience. That’s what led about experiences. Life is all about as while and then counsel them.” Advice
Luthra to attain a degree in law in 1989 many experiences as I can get. Even the worth its weight in gold, one could say!
and establishing his law firm on a mo- bad experiences. I’ve had one recently.
torcycle with a small space in Ashoka Again, I thanked everybody that made What’s the next phase for L&L
Estate, Barakhamba Road. “And that’s me live a fuller life. To describe me is a
where my journey began as a law- very tough sort of task. But I don’t know Partners?
yer. And like they say “Karwah banta how to describe myself really. And now “We are building a state-of-the-art
gaya…” and I was very fortunate. I coming to McKinsey. So, I was having artificial intelligence, big data analy-
started dealing with wonderful human a chat with Adil, a very dear friend and sis, the whole nine yards,” answers
beings. In fact, my first three employees at that time, he was the Chairperson of Luthra. To put this into perspective,
Luthra shares that at L&L Partners

29 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

THE FIRST THING THAT INDIA NEEDS IS
TO ENABLE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILD-
ING. ONCE, YOU BUILD THE INFRASTRUC-
TURE, YOU HAVE YOUR PORTS, YOU HAVE
RAILWAYS, YOU HAVE YOUR ROADS, THE
WHOLE STORY WILL START TO CHANGE
VERY QUICKLY.

biometrics entry is a thing of the past. it, non-governmental organization— we have a scheme like the Philippines,
Attendance at the firm is enabled by active in the area of drought preven- like Indonesia recently did? Look at the
cell phone sim cards given to every tion and watershed management in the other countries, it’s not rocket science.
person in their office. The moment one state of Maharashtra, India—founded In America how is the infrastructure
enters the office and the cell phone con- by Indian actor Aamir Khan and his built? It was built through long-term
nects to the WiFi of the office, attend- ex-wife, Kiran Rao, Luthra has also bonds. Do we have them in India? We
ance is marked. There’s also a camera set up an organization called the LIFE don’t. So how can we get it? If the gov-
at the entrance, which then matches Foundation: Leading India to a Fresh ernment announces tomorrow morn-
the time and face to the individual. Environment with Hari Dev Shourie. ing, that you bring in as much money
For performance appraisals, the firm Luthra also works closely with the Bill as you want, you’ll be immune from
uses dashboards that assesses perfor- & Melinda Gates Foundation, Clinton all laws. 15% will be deducted at the
mance parameters in real time. The Foundation, Ford Foundation and bank at the authorized dealers. By my
parameters include: attrition, getting many others. Luthra has contributed calculation that means $150 bn. Now,
new clients, billing, attendance, tardi- toward building an Education and Wel- this $150 bn is equity, you leverage that
ness, sending bills on time and more. fare Fund for the minor kids of the peo- six, seven times, see the number you
In another forward-looking initiative, ple whom the firm lost to the pandemic. come to.” Luthra also points that we’re
Luthra spoke about examining the IoT the only country in the world that can
and looking into laws of the future for How can we bolster the Indian legal talk to Tokyo & New York during our
driverless cars and automated medical office hours yet we are not the Inter-
devices with a view to finding answers and business space? national Arbitrational Hub. “Look at
to precarious questions of the digital When asked about what India needs, the land we have, our Delhi airport is
world—who will you sue if a driverless Luthra says, “we need infrastructure, 200 acres. Why can’t we build a lovely
car breaks your leg? What happens if full stop”. The first thing that India three buildings, one for the lawyers, one
someone hacks into the app that ad- needs is to enable infrastructure build- for the arbitration centre, and one of
ministers insulin via body patch into a ing. “Once, you build the infrastructure, course for me for the idea,” Luthra adds
diabetic patient? “I punch 200mg, and you have your ports, you have railways, in jest. “Where in the world you have
you pass, it’s murder!” exclaims Luthra. you have your roads, the whole story five minutes walking from the airport,
will start to change very quickly.” To international arbitration. Few of these
Pro Bono work that’s close to Rajiv make this happen Luthra also shares things, if we do them, can really change
a solution. He says, “We have a trillion the landscape,” asserts Luthra while
Luthra’s heart dollars of Indian money illegally lying laying down the roadmap for India Inc
Along with furthering the cause of the outside as per government of India’s of the future.
Paani Foundation, which is a non-prof- numbers. We bring it back. Why can’t

30 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

“WEAR YOUR
SPECIALIST HAT
LIGHTLY SO THAT THE
OTHER STUFF CAN
FLOW IN”

Ajay Bahl, Co-Founder
and Managing Partner
at AZB & Partners in
conversation with Dr
Annurag Batra and
Ashima Ohri talks about
his spectacular journey
in law, including his
bonding with his partners
Zia Mody and Bahram
N. Vakil; the evolution
of the TMT industry;
the importance of M&A
advisory; and his passion
for fitness and DJing.

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

31 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

FOR CERTAIN How have you managed the roles don’t bother about day-to-day issues
DECISIONS, WE that are going on. Collectively, I think
MAKE SURE in AZB between yourself, Zia Mody, over a period of time, without there
THAT WE HAVE being any hard and fast list of deci-
A VERY COLLEC- and Bahram N. Vakil? sions, we have identified for us what
TIVE DECISION. A JAY BAHL: Ours is a very ex- we think are important decisions,
WE ALWAYS traordinary relationship where a which we will agree we’ll always take
AGREE THAT professional relationship has be- a collective view on. That does not
AT THE END OF come a very personal relationship. mean we won’t talk about other is-
THE DAY THIS So the fact of the matter is that Zia, sues. Zia and I may speak maybe 10
IS GOOD FOR Bahram, and I are personally very times in a week or maybe five times in
THE FIRM SO close to each other, which is a bond a day—whether it’s a small issue or a
EVEN IF I HAVE that has gotten built over the years big issue. Whatever we want to talk
ANOTHER VIEW and it has gotten built through about to each other we talk about it.
WE DECIDE work but it has now transcended
THAT LET’S work. That makes life much easier. But for certain decisions, we make
TEST IT OUT, When you are friends you are able sure that we have a very collective
LET’S THINK to interact and deal with each other. decision. That doesn’t mean that
ABOUT IT, LET’S everybody has to always agree on
MOVE ON. Secondly, by the time we had merged, everything, but we always agree
we had already kind of been there that at the end of the day this is
you know. Sometimes you merge good for the firm so even if I have
too early then everything is a con- another view we decide that let’s
cern. Every small issue becomes test it out, let’s think about it, let’s
an issue of ‘my view-your view’ move on. After one year we can al-
and we were beyond that stage. ways do a reversal if the decision
doesn’t go well. So that kind of thing.
Our basic approach to our respec-
tive operations is that we are wed- Let me give you an example, when
ded and we are one firm. Right across we take a huge tax team on board like
our offices, interaction amongst our Deepak [Chopra] came on board
partners is absolutely superb. They from PDS [Legal] with an entire
operate seamlessly across the firm. team, of course, that is the decision
Partners in Delhi work with partners that we will jointly discuss that we
in Bombay, Bangalore and vice versa. open a new area of practice, forensic
They interact with Zia and me, so the for example, of course, we will dis-
headache from our point of view of cuss. So, the bottom line is that we are
making the firm work together, and very, very connected with each other.
integrate was and is not there.
Further, we have always dealt with
Thirdly, we had all run our own of- rumours in a very simple way. There
fices before we merged. So there was will be people who will come and tell
a certain style through which we had me you know that oh we have heard
approached matters but we decided this and that so invariably what Zia
that we will take the best practices or I will do is put each other on the
from every office. But we don’t have phone and without telling the oth-
to replicate everything as people are er person we will put ourselves on
used to a particular style. So our ap- speaker and so our team is sitting
proach to our practices and our offic-
es is a soft touch approach where we

32 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

GCs HAVE BECOME FAR MORE IMPOR-
TANT IN THE LAST 10 YEARS, AND WE
HAVE A VERY INTERACTIVE, VERY COM-
PLEMENTARY ROLE WITH GCs. WE DON’T
SEE ANY SORT OF FRICTION BETWEEN US
AND THE GCs AND MOST OF THE TEAMS
THAT WE WORK WITH.

there and we are saying that oh, by who is recommending something, how much to do in-house. The role of
the way, there is this rumour float- is not a part of the decision making the GC, as we see it, is to improve the
ing around, we laugh at it and in five because anyways the person will quality of the advice that they need to
minutes the whole issue gets diffused have to recluse, so how does it mat- seek, and not necessarily to replace
rather than us trying to explain the ter? So if a GC is today working—very your lawyers, but to make sure that
issue…all I am saying is this is how we often with us when we make client you raise the quality of advice that
decided that nothing which comes presentations for a transaction as you are drawing from your external
up is to be shoved under the carpet, an example, the GC and us will do it resources, so that combined with the
just close it out. together—at that point of time, the experience and knowledge of the GC
board has a free hand to say whatever and the domain and their personal
When you look at the US, Europe, it wants without worrying that the involvement with the business, the
GC is actually a member of the board combination of our broader experi-
a GC in a large firm, in a large cor- or an old-time director, or so on. ence across sectors, their experience
across the company, and possibly oth-
poration is on the board, and the So I think not being on the board er experiences gives the best result.
is not really an area of concern as
CEO or the chairman of the board far as I see it. In fact, I think it’s not The role has changed very signifi-
unhealthy, it’s actually healthy that cantly, GCs I think have become far
would not move forward unless the they are not on the board because more important in the last 10 years
they can have very free interaction than they were earlier, and we have
GC says whereas in India not many and the board can have a very dis- a very interactive, very complemen-
passionate view in terms of how you tary role with GCs. We don’t see any
GCs are on the board of Indian look at the GC’s recommendation. sort of friction between us and the
GCs and most of the teams that we
companies. Do you think GCs need To your point about the evolving role, work with, and most GCs are pretty
I think the GC’s role is getting very mature to understand as I said…it’s
to be more involved in strategies evolved in India, the number of GCs all about sharing experiences to get
and the importance given to GCs has the best result for ultimately one per-
than they do currently? become much greater than it was ear- son, which is our client and their em-
AJAY BAHL: You know being on lier and the good GCs know how to ployer. That should be the objective.
the board or not being on the board balance the requirement of getting
to my mind, is not so important, information from your advisors and How can a legal professional be as
because, in any event, the chief le-
gal officer or the chief compliance
officer is a KMP (Key Managerial
Personnel) and is a very important
person. Sometimes the board has
to evaluate many decisions that the
GC is recommending, you know they
have to take the final decision. And
sometimes it is better that the person

33 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

successful as you? of advice we give to our junior law- about it), sleep over it, think about it.”
AJAY BAHL: So first let me tell you yers and our partners, in terms of So it has been fantastic, that’s why I
that we have only three age catego- the mentoring that we provide. said it has become a friendship more
ries in AZB, young, quite young, very than a professional relationship.
young. And I have taken young for What have you learnt from Zia As far as people who have really
myself, so the younger and quiet and what have you learnt from played an influence in my life, frank-
young, we can talk about. So to an- Bahram? And second who are the ly, there are two very major influenc-
swer your question, we spend a lot people you look up to in the legal ers, one is Mr N. K. P. Salve, my origi-
of our time in talking to our teams, profession that you currently work nal Boss, Harish’s father, he actually
talking about values, talking about with, or have worked with, in the shaped my entire career, he is the one
what is the right thing, so it’s not just past, and why? who made me do law when I was do-
about law, in fact, we have an associ- AJAY BAHL: So, obviously you know ing chartered accountancy and has
ate orientation or orientation for any- the learnings are difficult to quantify been a great contributor to my life in
body who joins, to talk about what but squarely from Zia, her energy or terms of approach to work, in terms
we expect from a person, not just as a
lawyer but as a human being as well. YOU NEED TO HAVE A HOLIS-
TIC VIEW. THERE SHOULD BE
We believe that the human-ness and SPECIALISATION, BUT THERE
the goodness is always a part and par- SHOULD BE ROOM WITHIN THE
cel of everybody’s growth. If you are SPECIALISTS, TO APPRECIATE
a good human being, the chances are THAT A LOT OF THE LEARNING
you will do better because you will COMES FROM THE NON-SPECIAL-
get along with people and that will IST, BECAUSE SOMETIMES A PER-
itself promote how you look at what SON WILL LOOK AT A MATTER
you do and the opportunities you get. WITH A FRESH PERSPECTIVE.

You need to have a holistic view, have
your specialisation. There should be
specialisation, but there should be
room within the specialists, to appre-
ciate that a lot of the learning comes
from the non-specialist, because
sometimes a person will look at a mat-
ter with a fresh perspective. So often
because you specialise in something,
you get a little bit of a tunnel vision.

So one of the things we have told her willingness to get on a flight, take of his approach to clients. My father
people is, “wear your specialist hat things on, tremendous energy, she again, though he was not in legal
lightly so that other stuff can flow in,” has—god bless her—tremendous en- practice, but because he was a profes-
because if you think of yourself as ergy, and she can just get after some- sional, in terms of how to approach
an expert, you will have plateaued. thing with a real dogged approach clients to give that extra, going that
Expert means there is noth- and of course she has marvellous extra mile for your client and making
ing to learn and therefore I don’t intellect. Bahram, is a very compas- the person feel comfortable—he and
see ‘expert’ as a compliment. sionate person; while very hardwork- Mr Salve had very similar values and
ing, very client-focussed, a person they were very good friends as well, so
Our basic motto is, find busi- who calms things down. So when those have been two very fantastic in-
ness solutions to legal problems. there are two hyper people, Zia and fluences and, thirdly, Harish himself.
We also pride ourselves on being I are both Cancerians, we tend to get When I was working with Mr Salve at
very accessible to clients. So that’s hyper, he calms us down. He is like his chambers, Harish was also doing
how we’ve sort of evolved in this “arey chhodo (let it be), soch lo (think his chartered accountancy. Once, he
whole process and that’s the kind

34 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

even lied to get me my first hearing in WE PRIDE OUR- there should be an alignment neces-
the tribunal because Mr Salve used to SELVES ON BE- sarily but [certainly] that has given
always appear with people who had ING VERY AC- the flexibility to players to be able to
appeared before and we were to go to CESSIBLE TO do things on the internet through
Allahabad for a very heavy duty mat- CLIENTS. SO streaming, which is not permissible
ter for JK Synthetics, I have never for- THAT’S HOW if you were doing the same thing over
gotten, and Mr Salve asked me “Beta, WE’VE SORT OF a television broadcast. It’s a very ex-
aap kabhi tribunal mein gaye ho?” EVOLVED IN citing time and I think the custom-
(Son, have you ever been to a tribu- THIS WHOLE ers are getting the best deal that they
nal before?) Of course, I hadn’t ever PROCESS AND could ever have got. There is so much
appeared, but before I could say any- THAT’S THE content that you are really struggling
thing, Harish said, “Yes, of course, he KIND OF AD- for what you want to watch out of so
has been to the tribunal many times.” VICE WE GIVE much content but it is a good experi-
TO OUR JUNIOR ence.
And I went with him to Allahabad, I LAWYERS AND
have never forgotten that hearing, I OUR PARTNERS, Do you have a Bucket List? Would
have never forgotten the judgement, IN TERMS OF
which was cited here and probably THE MENTOR- you please allow us a peek into
in my life I will never forget it be- ING THAT WE
cause I made all the mistakes [pos- PROVIDE. your life outside of work?
sible], but when I came out Mr Salve A JAY BAHL: I am a very fond
asked me “Beta, have you actually runner, I have run 8 half-mar-
ever appeared?” I thought this is a athons; I was very keen to do at
very short job and I am going to get least 10 but I have got an injury in
fired now, instead he put his arms my knee so I am still hoping that I
around me and said, “Oh my God! will make up for two more. I ski.
How much pressure I must have More importantly, I am an aspiring
put on you, I’m going to fire Har- disc jockey so maybe when things are
ish, fire him for having allowed you okay and you are back and you have
to take this pressure on, we could some celebration party I will come
have hired another person to sit in and DJ for you guys. I am playing a
the court with you so that your first musical instrument now and I try
hearing could have gone smoothly.” and balance my day with all of these.

You can’t find people like that any I also have a great desire to be able to
longer and I have very fond memories contribute a little bit from a govern-
of Mr Salve and what I learnt from mental standpoint. I do like to spend
him and, of course, Harish as well. a fair amount of time in just trying to
work with policymakers and sharing
You have done so much work in the ideas and thoughts in terms of how
we can make things better or we can
TMT arena that too with some of make life a little better for all of us in
terms of how we should operate, self-
the biggest players, today tech- regulation etc. That’s partly profes-
sional but it has become a hobby now
nology, media, telecom have but the rest of them are just what my
current hobbies are, and I am enjoy-
merged. Where do you see that ing them.

going? Read more at http://bwlegalworld.
AJAY BAHL: I think that this busi- businessworld.in/article/In-conver-
ness is going to continue to grow, but sation-with-Ajay-Bahl-Co-Found-
definitely I think there are some grey er-and-Managing-Partner-of-AZB-
areas in terms of the policy frame- Partners/30-07-2020-302996/
work for television broadcasting and
internet broadcasting. Maybe it’s the
right thing, I’m not suggesting that

35 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

“UNLESS YOU ARE
GOING SOLO, BE A
TEAM PLAYER”

Bahram N. Vakil believes
the secret sauce of any
professional firm is its
people. In this interview Dr
Annurag Batra and Ashima
Ohri speak to him about
the impact of Covid-19 on
the legal profession, his
journey in law, what makes
AZB such a formidable
legal practice, his views
on FDI inflows, and most
importantly, the hope of
sunny days ahead

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

36 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

Please tell us the kind of mentors, but it was also top calibre and I should advantage and Zia was two blocks
thank them for my job at Debevoise. away, we used to meet regularly for
role models, seniors that you met lunch and the seed of AZB was kind of
The placement office had asked me fermented there, thanks to New York.
both in your education and then in in the first week when I joined, “Would
you like to work in America before you After New York you came and
your first job in New York that helped go back?” and I said I am in two minds,
so he replied, “You be in two minds af- worked in Bombay, in Little and Co
you become the professional that ter you get a job, first you make your
CV, we will help you make a CV, start and you made a name for your-
you are. your interviews.” And I had my job
Absolutely spot on — Columbia and with Debevoise by God’s grace before self there as well. You became the
Debevoise — my years in New York, Thanksgiving and that was all the Co-
that was a fantastic learning experi- lumbia push. youngest partner. Tell us about your
ence, I have to say New York in 1982
was a very hard place, especially the Coming to Debevoise and Plimpton days at Little and Coand howdidyou
Columbia area, it was pretty danger- again a top firm, they were super in
ous, to be honest. quality and they were a very old fash- become such a young partner and
ioned firm, much like Little & Com-
So when I moved to San Francisco pany. Just one example, Mr Debevoise what is your advice to young pro-
and someone said it’s a tough neigh- was at the door to receive me, I mean
borhood, for us it was like a joke once you are talking about a 25-26 year old fessionals who start out to become
you had lived in the outskirts of Har- first year associate walking in the door
lem. and the named partner is standing at partners at big law firms?
the door to meet him. That’s the kind As I said it was a smaller firm. At that
Similarly, in Columbia there were of graciousness of that firm. time the three dominating firms were
professors that left a lifelong impres- Little, Crawford Bayley and Mulla &
sion on you, there was Harvey Gold- I was also the first Indian Debevoise Mulla. Very family feel kind of firm and
stein who taught me Corporate Law. had ever hired, so he said, “I’m telling you know when you are that few, it’s a
I think he got the best professor in you this, so that you don’t feel pres- fantastic feeling and we had the benefit
law school for several years. He was a sured” and started laughing. of that.
practicing attorney and then there was
Reese, who was very famous. So those At that time, the number of Indian My mentors at the firm were the sen-
people left an indelible impression and lawyers in New York, you could almost ior partners there, Mr Dara Mehta, he’s
Columbia itself, while it was academi- count on your fingertips. We had that still there, he is still practicing; the sen-
cally super tough, no holds barred, very ior most partner, Mr Govind Desai, a
very competitive, no one would share brilliant man; Mr Jimmy Shroff; and
notes with you etc., very New York style Mr Ravi Kulkarni who is a senior part-
ner today at Khaitan.

So from there I learnt the troika,
which is so rare that they are intellectu-

WE LIKE TO THINK THAT WE ARE IN
QUALITY, SECOND TO NONE, WE ALWAYS
FOCUS ON THAT. AND SO IT’S THE TEAM
AND RIGHT FROM OUR FIRST YEAR
ASSOCIATES TO OUR PARTNERS AND
SUPPORT STAFF—ALL OF THEM ARE
FANTASTIC PEOPLE.

37 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

ally top class, integrity absolutely cru- show up. In all fairness, she at least ap- name changed from CZB to AZB, Ajay,
cial, but also fantastic human beings. preciated and understood. And once Zia and Bahram. And that’s the story.
the year ended, things moved very fast.
So that combination and the basic But again I should say, the day I left Lit- Your co-founding partner, Ajay
grounding, the basic values, the teach- tle, was one of the most emotional days Bahl, refers to you as the balanc-
ing from there, those 20 years were of my life. ing factor in the firm. Would you
very memorable years of my life. And please tell us how do you stay
a lot of lessons I learnt there, of course, To answer your question on the CZB so Zen?
I carried over to AZB. part is very easy. She was CZM, Cham- I think he’s being very kind. I should
bers of Zia Mody. She started her career say that I am very blessed. I think all
Before AZB, there was CZB. You as a barrister and then quickly went of you know that they are the two su-
back to corporate, because in New perstars and of course our timing was
mentioned the seeds of AZB were York she was with Baker McKenzie. fantastic.
So CZM had just changed to CZB be-
sown because of you and Zia know-
IN ANY PROFESSIONAL FIRM, THE
ing each other, meeting in New SECRET SAUCE IS ONLY PEOPLE.
YOU ARE AS STRONG AS YOUR
York, How did the transition from JUNIOR-MOST MEMBER AND I
THINK THERE WE ARE REALLY
CZB to AZB happen, and what made BLESSED, WE’VE ALWAYS BEEN
FOCUSED ON THAT. FROM DAY
it happen? ONE WE HAD TOP QUALITY
Just to be clear, I have known Zia since PEOPLE, TOP CLASS PEOPLE IN
I don’t know, when I was 6 years old EVERY WAY.
or something. It is a very close family
friendship, our parents were very good cause I came so it became Chambers The period 2004 to the Lehman-pe-
friends but professionally that was the of Zia and Bahram. But on day one, we riod were the real glory years across the
first. wanted to build a broad full service law world and, of course, in India as well.
firm pan India. That’s how we had a fantastic start to
How it all happened is a very funny the firm and in some ways like The
story, I’ll say it in as discrete a way as The plan we had was that in three Beatles had two superstars John Len-
possible. One of our top firms, very sen- years, we should have a practice in at non and Paul McCartney, Ajay and Zia
sibly decided when they were looking least Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore and we are them, they are very musical too, but
for lateral partners and growing that should be around a hundred lawyers to then you have George Harrison who is
they will take three good friends and be a serious player in the Indian legal more spiritual, who is more Om Shanti
take them onboard simultaneously. So market. Again by God’s grace that’s ex- Om, so yes I am a very spiritual guy, I
two of them were Zia and myself and actly what happened. We were about am a very religious guy, and I believe
the third was one of my closest friends. 105 in three years. one of my biggest strengths is inter-
That did not materialize and when it personal skills and I love people, so it’s
didn’t materialize the third guy said Then we were very fortunate to
to us that “listen this did not work out, get Ajay on board, and that’s how the
but why don’t you guys, the two of you
think of setting up a firm?” and that’s
when we took it seriously. I think very
soon thereafter we had lunch together
and that was it.

But I went back to Little, a very dif-
ficult decision, very emotional decision
as I said, truly it was like a family and
they were of course very upset and so
one of the things they did, I guess, hop-
ing I’d change my mind, is they made
me observe a one-year leave-notice-
period. So when I went back and told
Zia, that we’ll do this, but I’ll come back
to you in a year, knowing Zia’s level of
speed, she must have thought this guy
is totally crazy and he’s never going to

38 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

quite easy for me. sauce—the people, the terrific team
I have to say it’s kind of God giv- that we have.

en and so I play that role, and I am And we are very young, I always joke,
very lucky to have played that role. I’d say we are very young in two ways,
one is that amongst our peer group, you
A lot of people would give an arm RIGHT FROM know AZB was formed in 2004, so we
THE TOP, WE are a very young firm if you compare
and leg away to build a firm like HAVE SAID with SAM, CAM, Khaitan, all of them
THAT YOU are decades older and second the av-
AZB. You created a perfect har- KNOW WE ARE erage age of our 440 odd lawyers will
DEAD AGAINST be the average age of India, under 30.
mony, you have given us a perfect POLITICS AND So it’s a very open, friendly firm, and
PLEASE KEEP IT genuinely anyone can walk into any
example of being in a band together. THAT WAY. IT IS of our offices and speak their minds
LONG HOURS, very freely and that’s not a cliché, any-
What has made AZB such a big force ALL LAW FIRMS one in AZB will confirm that it is true.
HAVE VERY
to reckon with? What makes AZB LONG HOURS, We can’t let you go without asking
PLEASE KEEP IT
such a formidable legal collabora- AS FRIENDLY, you—we have J.B. Dadachanji, Mul-
AS CORDIAL
tion? What’s the secret sauce of AS YOU CAN SO la & Mulla, and many more—what is
YOU ACTUALLY
your firm? ENJOY YOUR it with the Parsis and the Law that
In any professional firm, the secret WORK.
they do so well?
sauce is only people. You are as strong That is very kind of you to say, but I
as your junior-most member and I think it has more to do with Parsis
think there we are really blessed, we’ve and profession. I don’t want to talk
always been focused on that. From day too highly of my community, very tiny
one even when we were about 25 law- community, but in doctors you would
yers in Bombay and 25 lawyers of Ajay’s find the same thing. There are lots of
team merged with us to create AZB, we top doctors Udwadia, Soonawala etc.
had top quality people, top class people So, you’re right JBD was a giant of
in every way and we have been focused a man. So doctors, lawyers, even ac-
on that. countants like Mr Malegam, so profes-
sion was a very big thing for Parsis.
Our mantra has always been quality,
not size. Even today are we the largest Perhaps because it’s such a small
law firm in India? Certainly, not. But tight-knit community, education was
we like to think that we are in quality, a very big focus for all of us and in many
second to none, we always focus on ways a profession more than business.
that. And so it’s the team and right from Of course, Tata, Godrej being the obvi-
our first year associates to our partners ous examples but I can’t agree with you
and support staff—all of them are fan- more. I mean even in counsel practice
tastic people. Sorabjee, Nariman, I mean there are so
many, so many.
And the second thing all three of us
have said, and again for me personally I think all of them bring a passion to
I’d say it is one of the learnings from the job, passion and hard work. Those
Little—keep politics to a real mini- are the two things you need the most
mum. When you are a small team, it’s in law. I’m sure it’s the same for doc-
very easy, it’s automatic bonhomie, tors. You have to have that combo, you
when you become as large as we are to- have to love what you do, given how
day then all this politics and groupism much time you have to spend doing
starts. it, and, of course, all these are giant
intellects, so I think that’s what they
So, right from the top, we have said
that you know we are dead against
politics and please keep it that way. It
is long hours, all law firms have very
long hours, please keep it as friendly,
as cordial as you can so you actually en-
joy your work. That’s really the secret

39 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

bring to the table. terdisciplinary skills. very sexy, M&A is the flavour of the
month. I’d say go with your heart,
How do you see FDI in the near My parents, like most people I would whichever area of law suits you, you
say definitely my dad who was a lawyer go with that.
future? and that’s why even when I was a 5 or
I am very bullish on India in the 6 year old, I was a very boring kid who And the second thing is unless you
medium and long term, and I’ll tell immediately said I want to be a lawyer. are going solo, be a team-player. Enjoy
you why. There are two things going It was a purely emotional decision. your work environment, avoid politics,
pretty much in our favour—it is this and you should have at least—amongst
whole very unfortunate situation with My mum, who has always taught me your good or best friends—some people
China. that there are no shortcuts in life, you you work with so that your life is enjoy-
have to walk the straight line always able. That would be my advice to them.
We [in India] focus a lot on the man- and do the hard work. I have learnt a Go with what you like, put in the
ufacturing, the supply chain, and no great deal from her. And unfortunately hours, don’t look for shortcuts in life
one will now put all their eggs in one I lost my dad when I was very young, 15
basket. They’ll have to diversify.
WE WILL HAVE TO FOCUS ON
My personal view is that we will SOME CORE MANUFACTURING
have to focus on some core manufac- COMPETENCIES WHERE INDIA
turing competencies where India is a IS A GLOBAL PLAYER AND GO FOR
global player and go for those. And yes THOSE. AND YES THEN MAYBE
then maybe we can beat Vietnam and WE CAN BEAT VIETNAM AND
Thailand and all those in that space. THAILAND AND ALL THOSE IN
So, some FDI should come there, obvi- THAT SPACE. SO, SOME FOREIGN
ously for APIs, pharma, and there are DIRECT INVESTMENT SHOULD
many other areas. COME THERE

So if you’re going to do a big FDI years old, but she made sure that all of and be good to all your colleagues.
in communications, in any of the us got the best education possible, so And the last quick thing is that
new age areas, where privacy is such definitely her. in the early years, keep yourself
a concern, snooping, especially by broad-based, be like a sponge,
sovereign is such a concern, India is And finally my wife, who is also a whatever you can learn, learn.
a place, like again if I may say with my lawyer—a lot of lawyers in the family— Don’t get too specialised early,
Parsi genes that India trusts the Tata she practiced for 13 years, again you down the road, of course, you will
brand, just like that I would say most know a very very high sense of integrity find one area that will be your spe-
of the world trusts the India brand. and crazily conscientious, so definitely cialisation and your expertise.
So if you are going to do 5G, which those are the three people.
Reliance has said, then whether it’s Read more at http://bwlegal-
US, whether it’s Japan, they will say For the youngsters my advice would world.businessworld.in/article/
“theek hai we can do this technology be it is a lot of hours, it is a lot of hard In-conversation-with-Bahram-N-
with India, it will give us a market of work. There are no shortcuts but that’s Vakil-Founding-Partner-AZB-Part-
over a billion people to test it”. pretty much in every profession. ners/06-08-2020-305516/

If you are going to do AI, if you are Do what you enjoy. Sometimes
going to do space technology, it is again youngsters feel that securities law is
huge and I think Bharti and the UK
Government have tied up for a project,
so I would say that this has given us a
fantastic opportunity because trust is
a huge factor in business and the trust
will today be focused on India.

Who are the people you look up to

and why? And secondly, what is your

advice to young lawyers in terms of

succeeding, in terms of learning in-

40 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



Mukesh Butani, ‘THE CUSTOMS
Founder, BMR Legal AND TRADE
and Chair, IFA India, PRACTICE
shares his views on ENVISAGES A
RESPONSIBILITY
India’s policy on THAT GOES FAR
non-tariff barriers, BEYOND TAX’
his transition from a
chartered accountant Rewinding to your initial years, you have an illustrious practice of over

to a top lawyer, three decades, would you please tell us a little bit about how this journey
and the importance
of finding one’s true began and how you carved this path for yourself?
Yes, you’re right. I have over three decades of experience in professional services
purpose in life but not all of it is as a lawyer. I was a qualified lawyer but in my first 20 years or
rather 23 years, I practised as a chartered accountant and it is only in the last
Interview by 10 years that I have been practising as a lawyer.
Ashima Ohri &
Anisha Aditya The only common thread in my last 33 years is that I have not ventured out
of the tax core competencies. So, it really doesn’t impact me. My being a lawyer
in the last 10 years has helped me achieve two things. One, it has given me the
ability to appear in the courts, which I couldn’t as a chartered accountant. And
two, it has given me the requisite gravitas to think beyond tax law, which is a
contract and the exchange control, evidence, and the civil procedure code.

Well, how I started off? I started off like any other professionally qualified
person starts. I was working in large firms for the first 18 years. Those were the
times when the common buzz was ‘the right person, at the right time, and at
the right place’. So, I became an Anderson Worldwide partner when I was just
31 years old. You can call me a lucky person. So I led a fairly senior manage-
ment level career at a very early stage of my life and I consider myself lucky. And
when you get into your senior management level in your thirties, you tend to
get bored, in the sense: what do you do next?

And that’s why I turned an entrepreneur at the age of 40 and I set up my
own firm along with the other co-founders, which was called BMR Advisors.
That firm transitioned into the Big 4 in 2017 and I came back into my boutique
model. So, life has been a good see-saw of nice experiments, more pleasant and
more of learnings than any regrets, I would say.

I couldn’t have asked for more and that’s why I used the word twice that I am
a very lucky person.

42 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

SO, LIFE HAS BEEN A GOOD SEE-SAW OF
NICE EXPERIMENTS, MORE PLEASANT
AND MORE OF LEARNINGS THAN ANY
REGRETS, I WOULD SAY. ”

Not many can achieve that level of ent. Now in order for you to be able looks after Customs Law is the Cen-
to do that, you have to be outstand- tral Board of GST and Customs. How-
success. What do you attribute the ing in technical knowledge, analysis, ever, I consider indirect taxes, which
in giving business solutions, and in is GST and which used to be the state
most to your success? bringing real cutting-edge approach VAT and the central excise before the
There are ways and means to achieve to clients’ problems. So, I would say GST law, came in as very different
growth in your business. I come from a combination of developing non- from the Customs and Trade practice.
an old school of thought, I don’t think technical skills in the area of public
that lawyers and professionals should speaking, high research and ability to The Customs and Trade practice
solicit work but we know that the re- network with the right minded peo- in my view, envisages a responsibility
ality at the ground level is different. ple is in my view, what stood out for that goes far beyond tax. For example,
Everyone is soliciting work and eve- me in my career. from a policy standpoint, customs,
ryone calls this business development tariffs are very often used as trade
or marketing. Would you please tell us about your barriers by various nations.

My idea of a professional lawyer is Customs and Trade practice? This is where we get into issues like
that you should be so good that the The Customs and Trade practice of- the World Tax Organisation (WTO),
client should be at your doorstep. ten gets confused with indirect taxes which is different from the WCO – the
You should be so good that the client because the administrative body that World Tax Organisation is different
should seek you out for it and then from the World Customs Organisa-
you ask for your price from the cli-

43 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

tion. You can get into areas such as could be before either the Special Val- The other advice that I would give

bilateral trade agreements, so the in- uations Bench or before the DRI, (Di- to my members of the Indian legal

ternational trade and customs prac- rectorate of Revenue Intelligence). profession is something I feel that

tice in my view, is distinct from other These investigations are extremely the Western part of the world does

forms of indirect taxes. sensitive, so we help our clients ad- better, which is that when you are

What do we really do in our cus- dress these investigative aspects in the legal profession, besides your

toms and trade practice? We do advi- within the customs and trade law. technical skills, do try and develop

sory work in terms of advising clients So, if you see, in the entire conver- soft skills. I think we spoke about

on where India is heading towards its sation I did not discuss GST because most of the soft skills whether it’s

policy with respect to non-tariff bar- I am segregating GST as an arm of networking or I spoke about commu-

riers. This is very relevant particular- tax from the Customs and the Trade nication, I spoke about developing

ly in today’s environment when India practice. It has been an extremely public speaking skills, they are very

is thinking of embargoes on customs enriching experience for us to help important. Whether you are practis-

importation in the country as a re- our clients in the Trade and Customs ing in the courts or not, please do not

sult of a backlash from China. Now practice. confuse sharpening your communi-

whether that comes in by way of high cation skills with representation in

customs tariff or by way of banning What is your message to young the court.

the imports all together is an integral lawyers? For individuals who are Of course, you need advocacy skills

part of the advisory practice. just starting out or are in mid-stag- when you are standing up in the court

The second is Inter-

national Trade Agree- WE DO ADVISORY WORK IN TERMS OF
ment. You’d have seen

the statement issued by ADVISING CLIENTS ON WHERE INDIA IS
Mr Piyush Goyal where

he has talked about a HEADING TOWARDS ITS POLICY WITH
limited trade agreement

with the United States. RESPECT TO NON-TARIFF BARRIERS”
We have a comprehen-

sive trade and economic

agreement with Singapore. We have, es of their career, how should they but you need it even when you are a

as a nation, let all the trade agree- be building their practices? solicitor because you know a docu-

ments with various nations expire. Very fundamental message: all of us ment that is churned out by an Eng-

So all of these are going to evolve as human beings have to have a pur- lish lawyer or an American lawyer in

by way of what is going to be India’s pose in life. You ought to have a pur- terms of it being error-free and the

approach towards trade policy. That’s pose in the legal profession as well. attention to detail it carries, is far

the trade part of it. What do we spe- That in my view, is very important. superior to what an Indian lawyer

cifically do? One, we advise on these After you have figured out what your churns out.

aspects to our clients. On customs purpose is, be passionate about it. So make sure you pay greater at-

specifically, our practice entails ad- Don’t have a purpose, which sounds tention to details and embrace the

visory, including representations on fashionable for which you get pulled concept of learning various facets of

various aspects. Those representa- into just because you see that in public policy. It’s not just about law,

tions could be by way of proceedings someone else. it’s all about public policy and eco-

before the Special Valuation Bench of Once you have a clear purpose in nomics as well. That is the only way

the customer authorities that ques- your life, you will figure out how to you will develop yourself into a multi-

tion the valuation of the imports that stay passionate to fulfill that pur- disciplinary lawyer as I call it.

the clients do particularly from re- pose. Do not give up your curiosity of

lated parties. learning no matter how popular, how Read more at http://bwlegalworld.

And second, would be helping senior and how rich you become. The businessworld.in/article/In-con-

clients handle investigations on cus- legal profession is all about continu- versation-with-Mukesh-Butani-

toms authorities. So the investiga- ous learning and continuous devel- Founder-BMR-Legal-Chair-IFA-

tions from the customs authorities opment. India/10-08-2020-306868/

44 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



“ONE NEEDS TO
EMPOWER AND
TRUST PEOPLE,
ESPECIALLY WHEN
WE ARE WORKING
REMOTELY”

Jyoti Sagar, Founder,
J. Sagar Associates
speaks with Ashima Ohri,
Managing Editor of BW
Legal World about his
journey in law; surviving an
era of disruption, the need
to give back to the society,
and also his endearing love
story with the message to
one and all —”follow your
heart”!

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

46 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

I WAS TOLD—GREAT THINGS COME IN
SMALL PACKAGES. I BUILT ON THAT SELF-
BELIEF AND AM LUCKY AND GRATEFUL
THAT I HAVE HAD MODEST SUCCESS.
SELF-CONFIDENCE, FOCUS, BELIEF, PUR-
POSE, VALUES—THESE FACTORS HELD
ME ON COURSE.

How would you describe this illustri- structure and a fair mechanism for did not sound right to me. This inci-
dent generated a profound impact as
ous journey that started with night profit-sharing at the equity partner well as self-curated inspiration to build
something different—to build a pro-
classes at the Delhi University Even- level. What led you to this path- fessional organization that recognizes
young professionals and provides them
ing Law Center? breaking decision? a platform for personal and profes-
JYOTI SAGAR: It has been a happy, JYOTI SAGAR: In our lives, we have sional growth not limited by how much
satisfying and exciting journey. From turning points. A life-changing turning cash you can invest in buying a piece of
the time I started, almost half-century point for me was the meeting I had with the organization.
ago, as a day time intern in a lawyer’s of- my uncle who was the sole proprietor of
fice and law student taking the evening the law firm and the subject of discus- I founded JSA in the year 1991 as a solo
classes, my journey has coincided with sion was my prospects of becoming a practice; it had grown to just about 15
monumental events in the country— partner. This was April 1991. By then I lawyers when in April 1998 I invited
the national emergency, the difficult had spent 19 years in that firm—three two of my then colleagues, who had
situation with terrorism in many parts, years as an intern and 16 years as an As- been greatly instrumental in helping
deep economic troubles and eventually sociate. During that period, the firm me build the practice, to become eq-
the opening up of the economy, and be- had grown manifold. The growth in uity partners in the firm. They were
yond. The legal profession has under- the practice was not due to just one surprised when told that they did not
gone a complete change through this person—the proprietor. Many includ- have to buy into the goodwill—because
period literally in all its aspects—what ing me, had surely contributed to the they had helped to create it in the first
we practice, how we practice, the cli- tremendous success of the firm. But, place. As years progressed, the firm
ents, and the competition. One has seen I realised that those contributions did grew and by 2003 we established the
the transition from manual typewriters not carry any meaning or value. An of- framework of a collegial and profes-
to Artificial Intelligence! The journey is fer was made to me to buy a small per- sional partnership with no vested in-
not yet complete as there are things still centage of share and the goodwill of the terests, where there was no equity or
left to be done! firm for what at that time was an enor- goodwill buy-in, merit got rewarded by
mous amount of money! I wondered invitation to join the partnership, and
JSA, as we all know, is the torchbear- if I had added “bad-will” to the prac- the provision of retirement age. And of
tice now that I was being asked to pay course, the no family rule. We felt that
er for meritocracy and democracy. for “good-will”? I wondered what was genius was more important than genes;
the price to pay for my youth that I had and making a name is better than living
The firm is founded on the principles dedicated to that law practice – the pro- off a “surname”.
verbialblood,sweat,andtears. Ina“no-
of—no family members in the firm, ble” human capital based profession,
treating other professionals so poorly
no goodwill buy-in at entry and no

goodwill payment at retirement

from partnership, a fixed retirement

age, a broad-based management

47 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

In your long career, you must have My parents came, her’s did not, but to face the future effectively?
her younger brother attended the cer-
faced many hurdles. How did you emony. We had 30 close friends and JYOTI SAGAR: The biggest chal-
family at our ceremony—in all it cost lenge is remote work and adop-
power through problems? us a grand sum of Rs.235/- with tea and tion of technology. Larger firms are
JYOTI SAGAR: Hurdles are a part of coffee and three snacks for the guests. equipped in terms of digital infra-
life. And I faced a few. To begin with, And you know what, all was well with structure and skills whereas, smaller
I am a tiny guy. Of a short stature. My my parents-in-law within a few weeks players and individual attorneys par-
parents and early mentors encour- of the wedding. I had a great and lov- ticularly engaged in court practice
aged me to have self-belief, a pur- ing relationship with them and their would have substantial challenges.
poseful life, the will to excel, and not support throughout. So my advice to For law firms: Anticipate and prepare
let my physical shortcomings come youngsters in this matter is—follow for an unprecedented situation like
in the way. They egged me on—I was your heart, do not worry about social COVID in terms of technology, deliv-
told—great things come in small pack- ery models, liquidity and upskilling
ages; quality over quantity; diamonds
versus coal! I built on that self-belief A MORE CRUCIAL FACTOR THAN
and am lucky and grateful that I have STRUCTURAL PREPAREDNESS IS
had modest success. So, self-con- BUILDING THE RIGHT CULTURE
fidence, focus, belief, purpose, val- THAT EXHIBITS ‘EMPATHY AND
ues—these factors held me on course. TRUST’ TOWARDS YOUR CLIENTS,
PEOPLE & STAKEHOLDERS.
We have heard a very endearing
conventions; pomp and show and people. A more crucial factor than the
story about you and your wife. Is it opulent curated weddings are wholly structural preparedness is building the
unnecessary and wasteful (and no right culture that exhibits ‘empathy
true that Ms Prema Sagar, who is guarantee that you will have a happy and trust’ towards your clients, people
married life!); never forget that you and and all the stakeholders. One needs
known for being one of Asia’s most your life partner are truly partners who to empower and trust people, espe-
have to give not only mutual respect cially when we are working remotely.
influential public relations person- but space to each other for personal
and professional growth; live below As lawyers, what is the number one
alities, ran away from home to marry your means; and maintain a balanced
life—I am not a fan of the expression way we can make a substantial dif-
you? Did your skills as a lawyer come “work-life balance”. That makes an ar-
tificial distinction between work and ference to the future of India? Please
in handy to make a case for it? Any life. Work is life too. But it must be bal-
anced with other pleasures, duties, and tell us a little about your founda-
advice to the young brigade of law- commitments in our lives. That is why
I prefer the expression “Balanced Life”. tion—Genesis
yers in the matters of the heart? JYOTI SAGAR: We must have a sense
JYOTI SAGAR: My wife Prema is one What is the biggest challenge in of giving back to the community. Do not
of the veterans of the public and media forget that our freedom struggle was
relations space—in India, Asia, and the legal industry in the COVID-19 led by lawyers! Empathy and caring for
globally. She is an incredible leader and those who are not as blessed as one is—
is one of the icons of the modern public era? What are the most criti- that must stay close to one’s heart. Over
and media relations consulting profes- the years, my wife and I have tried to do
sion.Shestartedher professionalcareer cal changes that we must make our bit. As mentioned earlier, there are
after the kids had grown up a bit. Start- events that are life-changing. As a fam-
ing as a solo from an extra room in my
first office, she built her practice to one
of the largest in the country within a pe-
riod of 15 years. I am very proud of her.
To go back to history, we met at our
workplace—the law firm where I
worked; we fell madly in love and de-
cided to get married. I was just 23 and
she was just a few months short of that.
We have been mavericks and outliers
in many ways—so the wedding was
no different. We invited our respective
sets of parents to a civil wedding that
we hosted in our newly rented house.

48 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

ily, we have had ours. Many years ago SPECIALISA- JYOTI SAGAR: I have been blessed to
we lost our second-born son to a con- TION IS NEC- have many mentors and guides in my
genital heart defect. He passed within ESSARY AT A life. Talking of the profession, I would
20 hours of his birth. The grief stayed CERTAIN LEVEL name three: My uncle Dr Vidya Sagar,
with us for long but led us to set up & MORE SO IN with whom I had the honour and privi-
Genesis Foundation years later. A be- LARGER LAW lege of working for 19 years—he taught
lief that every child has the right to live FIRMS. BIG me the nuances of the written and spo-
a healthy life, and that is why we started CORPORATES ken word and client handling tips and
the foundation. Genesis Foundation ARE BECOM- techniques; Mr Amar Raj Lall, with
is a trust created to provide access to ING SELF-SUF- whom I spent several years working on
world-class medical care to underprivi- FICIENT WITH complex matters. What he taught me
leged children suffering from congeni- THEIR IN- was—“assume nothing”—examine the
tal heart defects, which remains in our HOUSE LEGAL key facts and critical legal points your-
country as one of the leading causes DEPARTMENTS self. And lastly, Mr J. K. Kaul, an elderly
of infant mortality. Genesis Founda- & THEY TEND lawyer in my old firm, where I was an
tion is the leading NGO in that space. TO REACH OUT understudy but despite a huge age dif-
TO EXTERNAL ference, we became wonderful friends.
From the treasure trove of your ADVISERS ON He was a stickler for thoroughness
COMPLEX and details. His refrain to me would
experiences, what is one piece of ISSUES. be “padho gadhe”. I learnt all I know
at the feet of these three gentlemen.
practical advice you would give to
Would you please recommend to
someone starting out as a lawyer or
our readers your favourite book or
looking to specialise in a particular
movie/series that left a lasting im-
field? Would you agree India needs
pression on you.
more generalist lawyers than ex- JYOTISAGAR: Overthelastfewyears,
a lot of my reading has been around
perts in limited areas of practice? the language of the law—an area I am
JYOTI SAGAR: There is no silver bullet passionate about. My favourite author
answer of yes or no. Let me give this a in that area is Bryan Garner. I would
twist. For business or corporate lawyers encourage your readers to pick up
working in-house—being a generalist a good book on contemporary legal
is better; but for external service pro- writing style. In more recent times,
viders—specialisation is necessary at I have enjoyed reading Simon Sinek
a certain level and more so in larger and Yuval Noah Harari. Currently, I
law firms. Big corporates are becom- am reading (or actually listening to as
ing more and more self-sufficient with an audio book)—Thinking, Fast and
their in-house legal departments doing Slow by Daniel Kahneman. Once in
more and more and they tend to reach a while, I listen to TED Talks. To re-
out to external advisers on complex is- lax, I like watching comedy shows or
sues. On the other hand, the segmen- films. Over the last ten years, The Big
tation of the market has not been ad- Bang Theory was a great favourite.
dressed in India. There is a large section And not to forget Tom and Jerry that
of the economy—take the MSME sec- I still enjoy with my granddaughters.
tor; or geographically tier-2, 3 and 4
cities—which are underserved by the Read more at http://bwlegalworld.
profession. It is a fact that a large part businessworld.in/article/In-conver-
of those segments relies on their char- sation-with-Jyoti-Sagar-Founder-of-
tered accountants for legal advice! How J-Sagar-Associates-and-K-S-Part-
about addressing that market? In that ners/13-08-2020-308009/
space—generalists would do better.

Who have inspired you the most in

this profession, and how?

49 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

‘I HAVE IN MY OWN
WAY TRIED TO GIVE
BACK TO SOCIETY’

Dr Lalit Bhasin,
Managing Partner,
Bhasin & Company and
President of SILF and
the Bar Association of
India, talks about the
release of his book, his
thoughts on Contempt
of Court, key factors
thwarting the success of
arbitration in India, the
future of mediation and
the non-uniformity of
force majeure clauses
in India, in a candid
interview with Ashima
Ohri. He also reflects
on the challenging
situations that led him
to meet Indira Gandhi
during the Emergency in

1975, and more

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