BW LEGAL WORLD NOVEMBER 2021

IN CONVERSATION

What inspired you to become a University of Delhi from the years ed, Chairman of Bar Council of Delhi,
1959 to 1961, after graduating from at the age of 33, was to set up a Law
lawyer? Where were the seeds of the centre of learning – Hindu Col- Library in the district courts, Tis Haz-
lege, Delhi. I was enrolled as a lawyer ari, New Delhi. The library was well
this illustrious journey sown and at the age of 23 years in 1962. equipped with the latest textbooks on
law and law reports.
how has it been so far? Inspiration to become a lawyer
I was born into a family of lawyers. was not just due to being a part of the This became a historic event as the
My grandfather Lala Gokul Chand family of lawyers but also to engage library was inaugurated by no less a
Bhasin was a lawyer in Rawalpindi in public service and that is where person than the President of India in
in undivided India. His elder brother my family, particularly my grandfa- the year 1975. The library is still a hub
Shri Shiv Ram Bhasin was also a law- ther and my father, were the shining of those lawyers, particularly young
yer practising in Ferozepur. examples of how lawyers can be and and junior ones, who cannot afford
should be vehicles for doing public to buy the law books.
My father Shri Tilak Raj Bhasin service.
was a very eminent and senior lawyer I raised the funds for this library
and he started his practice in Rawal- My grandfather was also a strong through the unconventional action
pindi before partition and thereafter Congressman and he fought for the of organising the premiere of the fa-
in Delhi and in Jammu and Kashmir. independence of the country and so mous film, Raj Kapoor’s Bobby and
He was a designated senior counsel. did my father. My father, even during was able to raise approximately Rs 6
As a student, I witnessed some histor- his active practice, appeared for those lakh which was a sizable amount at
ical cases handled by my father in the who were politically victimised and that point of time. Out of the funds
courts of Delhi and I used to attend for the underprivileged, many a time generated by these film shows I was
court hearings whenever possible. without charging any professional fee able to set up a Fund for Indigent and
at all. Disabled lawyers.
In this atmosphere and environ-
ment of learning, hard work and pub- I have in my own way tried to give Thereafter I have continued to
lic service I could not think of joining back to society as a lawyer. The very do my bit towards helping the legal
any other profession or taking up a first thing that I did when I was elect- profession, helping the law schools,
job and the result was that I became
a student of law in the Faculty of Law,

THE VERY FIRST THING THAT I DID
WHEN I WAS ELECTED, CHAIRMAN OF
THE BAR COUNCIL OF DELHI, AT THE AGE
OF 33, WAS TO SET UP A LAW LIBRARY IN
THE DISTRICT COURTS, TIS HAZARI, NEW
DELHI ...THE LIBRARY IS STILL A HUB OF
YOUNG AND JUNIOR LAWYERS ... ,”

51 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

strengthening the bonds among le- However, litigation lawyers particu- as Chairman of the Delhi Bar Council
gal professionals all over the coun- larly in the district courts and young way back in 1975 by setting up a fund
try, and most importantly, putting and emerging law firms,have suffered for indigent and disabled lawyers.
India on the legal world map. This immensely due to lack of work and
was achieved during my tenure as an non-payment of professional fees by Looking back, what have been
office-bearer of various national and the clients.
international law organisations. some of the biggest challenges
This is a serious challenge for this
I continue to play this role till this young section of the legal profession you’ve faced as a lawyer?
day. My wife Nina, my daughters So- whether as litigation lawyers or as One of the most challenging situa-
nia, Priya and Shilpa, my grandchil- part of emerging law firms. These tions that I had to face was during the
dren Arush Khanna, Swati Mehta young lawyers are also handicapped period when Emergency had been de-
and her husband, Aditya Bharech, as they do not have modern tools of clared in the country in 1975. A large
are all lawyers and they firmly believe technology which is a big setback. number of lawyers practising in the
district courts at Tis Hazari had been
LITIGATION LAWYERS arrested and put behind bars in Tihar
PARTICULARLY IN THE DISTRICT Jail as they had protested against the
COURTS AND YOUNG AND demolition of their chambers. I was
EMERGING LAW FIRMS,HAVE Chairman of the Bar Council of Delhi.
SUFFERED IMMENSELY DUE TO
LACK OF WORK AND The members of the families of the
NON-PAYMENT OF PROFESSIONAL lawyers who had been put behind
FEES BY CLIENTS (DURING COVID bars approached me repeatedly to
TIMES). THIS IS A SERIOUS help the lawyers be released from the
CHALLENGE FOR THIS SECTION,” jail. I visited the lawyers in the jail
and I assured them my help. I made
frantic efforts and took up the matter
right up to the Prime Minister (Indira
Gandhi) and sought immediate re-
lease of the lawyers. Fortunately, my
appeal resulted in the release of the
lawyers from jail within three days.

There were similar instances of
harassment and possible arrests of
some of the senior-most members
of the legal profession of the country
and I was able to make it possible for
them to evade the impending arrests.

in and carry out the ethics, etiquette, What are the most critical changes Your key practices include avia-
rules of conduct in their respective
fields and all of them firmly believe that we must make in the wake of tion, labour and employment, ar-
that it is a salutary obligation on the
part of lawyers to give back to society the pandemic to face the future ef- bitration and ADR and litigation.
in whatever way possible.
fectively? Would you please help us under-
How has Covid-19 impacted your The important changes or remedial
practice? What is the biggest chal- changes which should be undertaken stand the future prospects of Me-
lenge in the legal industry at the by the regulatory body, namely the
moment in the Covid-19 era? Bar Council of India and the Depart- diation in India?
The law firms and the senior counsel, ments of Law and Justice at the Cen- With over 3.2 crore cases pending in
in my opinion, have not suffered any tre and State levels, is to create a fund the courts all over India, the justice
adverse impact in a significant way. for the needy section of the legal pro- delivery system has virtually bro-
fession in order to enable them to face ken down. Ordinary citizens of this
any such challenge in future. This is country are deprived of quick, effec-
what in a very small way, I tried to do tive and inexpensive justice from the
courts. It was considered that arbitra-
tion could be an effective alternative
dispute resolution mechanism but

52 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

unfortunately, even arbitration has MEDIATION initiated training programmes in the
failed to take off In India. The 1996 SEEMS TO BE field of mediation and under the guid-
Arbitration and Conciliation Act, THE ANSWER ance of the headquarters in London,
replacing the 1940 Act, has not been TO DISPUTE we are making a good headway.
able to promote arbitration in India. RESOLUTION
The reasons are manifold, but the key IN INDIA. THIS I always advise my clients “A bad
factors are lack of institutional arbi- AGAIN WOULD settlement is better than successful
tration and virtual monopolisation REQUIRE litigation.”
of arbitration by former judges and TRAINED
lawyers. MEDIATORS, From the treasure trove of your ex-
WHICH WE
Other important sections among ARE LACKING periences, what is the one piece of
professionals are left out from being TODAY. WE
appointed as arbitrators. These in- WOULD NEED practical advice you would give to
clude chartered accountants, compa- INSTITUTION-
ny secretaries, engineers, architects, AL MEDIATION someone starting out as a lawyer
consultants, retired bureaucrats, etc. WITH TRAINED
Another factor is that in India we do MEDIATORS or looking to specialise in a par-
not have trained arbitrators. WHO INSPIRE
CONFIDENCE,” ticular field?
Retired judges and lawyers cannot My advice to budding lawyers is to
be considered as trained arbitrators get familiarised with all branches of
as they are only familiar with the le- law initially. In other words, be a gen-
gal issues which arise in the disputes eral practitioner to begin with and do
but they cannot claim expertise on not look for any specialisation in the
the factual and technical aspects of initial stages of one’s professional life.
the disputes. Another factor is that Specialisations would come naturally
arbitration has become as expensive and automatically, given the aptitude
if not more than litigation and is also of the young lawyers for the practice
very prolonged. of law, such as litigation (civil or
criminal), corporate law, consumer
What is the major issue plaguing protection law, labour / employment
laws, constitutional law, intellectual
these methods of dispute reso- property law, information technology
law and real estate laws. A lawyer has
lution right now and what in your to know much more than the subject
in which he / she proposes to special-
opinion is the way ahead? ise. One must have a good overview
Mediation seems to be the answer of laws applicable in the country. It
to dispute resolution in India. This would help in the field of specialisa-
again would require trained media- tion the lawyer is engaged in.
tors, which we are lacking today. We
would need institutional media- Whenever I visit law schools (which
tion and these institutions should I do frequently – at least once in a
have such trained mediators whose month) as a part of giving back to the
names should inspire confidence in society, I always advise the senior stu-
the parties. A good beginning has dents who would eventually become
been made in India, particularly by lawyers that they should not confine
the Delhi High Court, which set up their study / research to law books but
a fully equipped Mediation Centre should seriously also study literature,
with a very knowledgeable team of works of economists and historians,
mediators. Other high courts are also and global developments that take
following the lead given by the Delhi place contemporaneously for the rea-
High Court. son that practice of law has become a
global activity.
As Chairman of the Chartered In-
stitute of Arbitrators, India, I have As lawyers, what is the number

one way we can make a substan-

53 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

tial difference to the future of our particular and its release by Mr Fali One has to learn a lot from Fali S.
Nariman. One great and noble fea-
country? S. Nariman? ture of Fali S. Nariman’s life is his
One way lawyers can make a sub- The book titled Lalit Bhasin – A Life- love and concern for his wife and his
stantial difference to the future of our time Dedicated to Law’, published by open recognition of her role in his life.
country is to keep at the back of their the Matrix Publishing Group, cap- I had the privilege of being a part of
minds the needs of the society – how tures my life from the pre-partition hundreds of functions which we held
to give back to the society. This ap- days as a child in Rawalpindi to my under the auspices of the Bar Associa-
plies to litigation lawyers as well as shift to Delhi and becoming a part of tion of India and other organisations
to the corporate lawyers / law firms. Delhi’s legal circles. during the last nearly five decades.
They should help junior members of In almost every speech or address or
the profession to grow, they should Life was not a bed of roses after par- remark which he made during these
interact with the law schools, and un- tition when we were uprooted from events, he never forgot to mention
dertake pro bono activities. Rawalpindi. It was a period of strug- Bapsi Nariman’s name even if he had
gle. What I have tried to convey in this to go a bit out of context.
What helps you unwind when you book about me is that one can start
from scratch and yet achieve one’s This was remarkable. At the time
are not working? goals if one has a mission in mind and of releasing this book, he again re-
I am a good student of literature and works towards it.
I read a lot. My other interests are
watching good movies. There is no LIFE WAS NOT A BED OF ROSES
time for hobbies as my spare time is AFTER PARTITION ... WHAT I HAVE
spent lovingly with my family (my TRIED TO CONVEY IN THIS BOOK
wife, my son, my daughters, my sons- ABOUT ME IS THAT ONE CAN
in-law and my grandchildren besides START FROM SCRATCH AND YET
my own siblings). This helps me un- ACHIEVE ONE’S GOALS IF ONE
wind. HAS A MISSION IN MIND ...”

At the professional level, I unwind My favourite part in the book is membered Bapsi and he said that he
when I undertake activities to pro- (the anecdote I shared earlier) about was very happy to see many pictures
mote and strengthen the profession my role in getting nearly a hundred of my wife Nina and Bapsi in the
in the country either in my position lawyers released from Tihar Jail, book. Most of us do forget the impor-
as President of the Bar Association of when during the Emergency in 1975 tant roles that our wives play and the
India, President of the Society of Indi- their chambers at Tis Hazari District care and concern they show to us – the
an Law Firms, Chairman of the Char- Courts were demolished, alleging that menfolk. Fali S. Nariman is a remark-
tered Institute of Arbitrators – India, those were unauthorised. able exception and that is what makes
or Chairman of the CII Task Force him a great human being.
on Legal Services. I also contributed When the lawyers protested, they
significantly to promote freedom of were arrested and put behind bars. Read more at http://bwlegalworld.
expression as Chairman of Films Cer- At that time, I was Chairman of the businessworld.in/article/-A-Life-
tification Appellate Tribunal. Delhi Bar Council. I had to use my time-Dedicated-to-Law-In-Conver-
efforts, my persuasive skills and my sation-with-Lalit-Bhasin-President-
One of my biggest achievements appeal to the conscience of the PMO of-SILF-and-the-Bar-Association-
has been to publish and bring out the to get the lawyers released. This was of-India/31-08-2020-315074/
600-pages compendium on 70 years a big relief.
of the Constitution of India, a publica-
tion that has been edited by me and
the first copy has been presented to
His Excellency, The President of In-
dia. All these activities not only keep
me busy but also help me unwind.

Would you please share a few

words about your pictorial coffee

table book, your favourite parts in

54 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



Senior Advocate U.K. “THE
Chaudhary speaks to APPROACH
OF NCLAT
BW Businessworld’s & NCLT IS
Editor-in-Chief BUREAUCRATIC”

Annurag Batra at the
BW Dialogue series. He

talks about the NCLT
and its functioning
and whether it has

effectively served its
purpose and much
more.

Interview by
Annurag Batra

56 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

Is the National Company Law Tribu- be technical members, they should be which the High Court is exercising, it
persons with expertise in Company goes without saying that the standards
nal functioning to the satisfaction of Law or allied subjects and mere expe- expected from the judicial members of
rience in civil service cannot be treated the tribunal and standards applied for
all stakeholders? as technical expertise in Company Law. appointing such members, should be as
U.K. CHAUDHARY: It’s a big ques- The tribunals cannot become providers nearly as possible, as applicable to High
tion. National Company Law Tribunal of sinecure to members of civil services, Court Judges, which are apart from a
(NCLT) was established on 1.6.2016, by appointing them as technical mem- basic degree in law, rich experience in
after Hon’ble Supreme Court, cleared bers, though they may not have techni- the practice of law, independent out-
the decks vide its judgement in the cal expertise in the field to which the look, integrity, character and good rep-
second case titled as ‘Madras Bar As- tribunals relate or worse where purely utation. Therefore, only persons with
sociation Vs Union of India and Ors; judicial functions are involved. (iv) If judicial background, i.e. who have been
(2015) 8 SCC 583, which challenged these tribunals are to function effective- or are judges of the High Court and law-
the constitutional vires of certain pro- ly and efficiently, they should be able to yers with prescribed experience, who
visions of Companies Act, 2013. In attract younger members who will have are eligible for appointment as High
the earlier case, raising similar issues, a reasonable period of service. The term Court Judges can be considered for
regarding provisions of Companies of service shall be changed from three appointment as judicial members.
Act, 1956, titled as Union of India Vs years to seven years or five years sub- The second judgement reiterated most
R. Gandhi, President. Madras Bar As- ject to eligibility for appointment of one of the findings of the earlier judgement
sociation; (2010) 11. scc.1., the Consti- or more terms. (v) The administrative and thus held: (i) National Company
tutional Bench of the Hon’ble Supreme support for all tribunals should be from Law Tribunals, thus would not only
Court, held; (i) If the tribunals are to the Ministry of Law and Justice. (vi) As deal with questions of law but would be
be vested with judicial power, hitherto tribunals are free from shackles of pro- called upon to thrash out the factual dis-
vested in or exercised, by courts, such cedural laws and evidence law, they can putes as well. In this scenario, National
tribunals should possess the independ- provide easy access to speedy justice in a Company Law Appellate Tribunal
ence, security and capacity associated ‘cost affordable’ and user-friendly man- (NCLAT), which is the first Appellate
with courts (ii) An independent judici- ner. (vii) When the legislature proposes forum, provided under the Companies
ary can exist only when persons with to substitute a tribunal in place of the Act, 2013, will have to revisit, the factual
competence, ability, and independence High Court, to exercise the jurisdiction, as well as legal issues. (ii) The technical
with impeccable character man the ju-
dicial institutions (iii) If there should

LOOKING AT THE PRESENT STRUCTURE
OF NCLT AND NCLAT, IN THE LIGHT OF
OBSERVATIONS OF THE HON’BLE
SUPREME COURT, MUCH IS LEFT TO BE
DESIRED IN TERMS OF APPOINTMENTS,
TENURE, SKILLS, EXPERTISE AND
INFRASTRUCTURE.

57 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

SOME BALANCING ACT IS REQUIRED
IN NC L T, WHERE, THERE COULD BE
SOME DEDICATED BENCHES
DEALING WITH ONLY COMPANY
CASES, WHEREAS OTHER BENCHES
CAN DEAL WITH I & B CODE CASES, AS
‘ADJUDICATING AUTHORITY’ .

members in National Company Law tribunals seriously and take timely ap- company cases have taken a backseat
Tribunal shall be only persons holding propriate measures to ensure smooth as most of the time all Benches of NCLT
the rank of a Secretary or Additional working of such important tribunals are consumed in dealing with cases
Secretary only, to avoid gradual erosion dealing with high stake matters of trade under the I & B Code. This has led to
of the independence of the judiciary. and industry, under the Companies undue delay in disposal of important
Looking at the present structure of Act and Insolvency and Bankruptcy cases of mergers, amalgamations, de-
NCLT and NCLAT, in the light of Code. The appointment of most of mergers, reduction of capital, oppres-
above observations of the Hon’ble the members in one way or other vio- sion and mismanagement and other
Supreme Court, much is left to be de- lates the mandate of Hon’ble Supreme miscellaneous company petitions. In
sired in terms of appointments, tenure, Court in the first and second cases this regard some balancing act is re-
skills, expertise and infrastructure, in as mentioned above. Hence the ap- quired in NC L T, where, there could be
comparison of High Courts, whose proach of NCLT and NCLAT, barring some dedicated benches dealing with
jurisdiction the Tribunal and its Ap- few exceptions is more bureaucratic only Company Cases, whereas other
pellate Authority are exercising, now. and not as a prominent Judicial Tri- benches can deal with I & B Code cases,
bunal, dealing with extremely impor- as ‘Adjudicating Authority’ or there may
How many members are appointed tant judicial issues of law and finance. be a division of time, schedules such as
I & B Code cases may be taken up in
in NCLT & NCLAT? NCLT & NCLAT are dealing with what the morning session and Company
U.K. CHAUDHARY: As of 1.10.2020, Cases in the afternoon session or even
there are 42 members in National kind of cases? roaster may be divided on the basis of
Company Law Tribunals out of which U.K. CHAUDHARY: All National certain days, fixed for I & B Code cases
20 are judicial members and 22 are Company Law Tribunals are dealing and some days for company matters.
technical members. In NCLAT there with all cases under the provisions of It is well known that delay in disposal
are 10 members, out of which there are Companies Act, 1956, after transfer of cases, will lead to denial of justice
technical members and four judicial from, erstwhile Company Law Board and may defeat, the very purpose for
members. However for over six months and High Courts and all new cases un- which National Company Law Tribu-
now, there is no President of NCLT and der the provisions of Companies Act, nals are established as a substitute for
no Chairperson in NCLAT. Both insti- 2013 and under the Insolvency and High Courts. The approach of National
tutions are headed by Acting President Bankruptcy Code, 2016. However, Company Law Appellate Tribunal is
and Acting Chairperson respectively. the cases under I & B Code have taken this regard is more balanced as it has
This itself reflects the apathy of the primacy over the Company matters, certainly dedicated benches for hearing
Central Government towards tribu- in view of the strict timelines, as laid- Company Appeals and other benches
nals. It is not understood as to why the down in code. Hence, there is the gen- hearing appeals under I & B Code or
Central Government cannot treat the eral grievance of litigating public that

58 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

benches dealing with limited appeals THE NATIONAL Companies in the MSME sector. All
under the I & B Code and rest ap- COMPANY LAW companies except a financial services
peals under the Companies Act, 2013. TRIBUNAL AS provider company were treated as
‘ADJUDICATING Corporate Debtor and liable for being
What is the role of NCLT & NCLAT AUTHORITY’ proceeded with under Section 7, 9 or
AND NATIONAL 10 as the case may be with fault restric-
under the provision of I & B COMPANY LAW tions of Section 29A of the I & B Code.
APPELLATE However, Section 240A was inserted
Code 2016? TRIBUNAL AS in the I & B Code w.e.f. 6.6.2018, by
U.K. CHAUDHARY: National Com- ITS APPELLATE Insolvency and Bankruptcy (seemed
pany Law Tribunals and National AUTHORITY, Amendment) Act, 2018, whereby it
Company Law Appellate Tribunal are CAN NOW EN- was stated that Clauses (c) and (h) of
playing a very important and construc- SURE THAT Section 29A shall not apply to a resolu-
tive role in implementing the provi- PROMOTERS tion applicant in respect of CIR pro-
sions of I & B Code, as ‘Adjudicating ARE GIVEN FAIR cess of any micro, small and medium
Authority’. All National Company Law OPPORTUNITY enterprises and Central Government
Tribunal benches are dealing with Ap- TO PARTICI- in the public interest was empowered
plications of Financial Creditors, under PATE IN THE by notification to direct that any of the
Section 7, operational creditors under RESOLUTION provisions of I & B Code shall not apply
Section 9 and Corporate Debtors un- PROCESS. to MSMEs or apply with such modifica-
der Section 10, under I & B Code and tions as may be specified in the notifica-
expeditiously deciding the applications tion. The net effect of this amendment
within the time prescribed by law. As was that promoters and guarantors of
on 1.4.2019, National Company Law MSMEs became entitled to give Reso-
Tribunal has disposed of over 6,000 lution Plan for their own companies
cases under the I & B Code and is also under CIRP but in the MSME sector.
dealing with 9,000 cases which are
pending at various stages along with The National Company Law Tribunal
allied and connecting multiple appli- as ‘Adjudicating Authority’ and Nation-
cations in the pending cases. It is re- al Company Law Appellate Tribunal as
sponsible for the recovery of over 2 lakh its Appellate Authority, can now ensure
crores through the process of initiation that promoters/guarantors are given
of Corporate Insolvency Resolution fair opportunity to participate in the
Process (CIRP), under the I & B Code. Resolution Process, by not just partici-
The banks and Financial Institutions pating in the meetings of Committee of
have now an effective and quick rem- Creditors (CoC) but also engaging in
edy to address their (Non-Performing the process as Resolution Applicants
Assets) NPAs and trade and industry in respect of their own company as a
is also now awakening to a new real- Corporate Debtor. Even Insolvency and
ity, where bankers and other finan- Bankruptcy Board of India (IBBI) can
cial creditors cannot be taken for a play a very constructive role in educat-
ride anymore. However, some careful ing the promoters of crores of MSMEs
monitoring system is necessary for as Companies, likely to face CIR Pro-
banks also to eliminate fraudulent cess under the I & B Code and frame
lending and fraudulent transactions, necessary rules and regulations in this
to stem the rot in the banking sector. regard. MSMEs for the purposes of Sec-
tion 240A is clarified in the Explana-
How is the impact of Insolvency and tion, which means any class or classes
of enterprises classified as such under
Bankruptcy Code 2016 on SMEs and Section 7 of Micro, Small and Medium
Enterprises Development Act, 2006.
the role of NCLT & NCLAT?
U.K. CHAUDHARY: To begin with, I
& B Code made no difference between
a large corporate debtor and other

59 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

‘MERIT HAS TO BE
JUDGED ON THE
YARDSTICK OF
OPPORTUNITY’

In this true-to-life
interview, Saurabh
Kirpal, Senior Advocate,
Supreme Court, speaks
to BW Legal World’s
Managing Editor Ashima
Ohri, about his book Sex
and the Supreme Court,
an anthology of issues
relating to law, gender,
and sexuality

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

60 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

THERE IS NO Saurabh Kirpal, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court
ALTERNATIVE graduated in law from the University of Oxford and did
TO SUCCESS his Masters in Law from the University of Cambridge. He
OTHER THAN worked briefly with the United Nations before returning to
HARD WORK. Delhi where he has been practising at the Supreme Court
WHEN I for well over two decades. He has appeared in a range of
STARTED TO matters covering a diverse subjects from commercial to
PRACTICE, I constitutional law. Clients he has appeared for have varied
USED TO PICK from Anil Ambani in his legal battle with his brother to being
UP OLD SCR’S the counsel for Navtej Johar, Ritu Dalmia and others in the
AND READ case that led to the reading down of Section 377 of the Indian
THEM COVER Penal Code. He calls himself an ‘accidental activist’ and is a
TO COVER ... I trustee of the Naz Foundation Trust, the NGO that first fought
BELIEVE THAT for the decriminalisation of homosexuality in India.
GAVE ME A
GROUNDING Please walk us through your early much before the fruits of economic lib-
IN LAW THAT eralisation had begun to be realised). I
STANDS ME IN years of education and the decision was dependent on being able to secure
GOOD STEAD a scholarship, which I was fortunate
TODAY ” to become a lawyer. enough to get. That’s how I managed to
Like any self-respecting child, I wanted read law at a university that imbibed a
to be an astronaut growing up! Flip- love of the academic side of law in me,
pancy aside, I did love science and a love that I carry to this day.
astronomy, so I decided to do my BSc
(Hons) in Physics from St. Stephen’s What has helped you get to where
College in Delhi. Had there been a re-
alistic proposition in getting a position you are and what advice would you
in the world of science without hav-
ing to move outside India, I might well have for others who want to set off
have stayed on that course. But I was
quite sure that I did not want to set- in a similar direction?
tle outside India, so I had to come up I believe that in litigation, the most im-
with a plan B. Coming from a family of portant virtues are patience, hard work
lawyers, with law being omnipresent and integrity. It sounds trite, but it is
in my surroundings, I decided to read easy to forget these principles. When
law. I had planned to read law at Delhi young lawyers, who are often under-
University, but I felt that I needed to ex- paid and overworked, see successful
pand my horizons and experience life lawyers around them, they are tempted
outside India, even if I was never going to take shortcuts to make it big. In do-
to permanently settle there. I applied ing so they may compromise their in-
to Oxford to read law and while I ob- tegrity and hence their reputation. The
tained admission there, I was not very single biggest asset in the profession is
sure whether I could go. My father was your reputation as an honest and com-
a judge and could not afford education petent lawyer and if you lose that, it is
abroad (this was in the early 1990s, difficult to regain it.

There is no alternative to success

61 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

THE BOOK SEEKS TO SHOW HOW THE
SUPREME COURT HAS ALWAYS COME
DOWN ON THE SIDE OF THE RIGHTS OF
THE INDIVIDUAL, WHICH IS NOT
SURPRISING GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE
CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHTS
ARE LARGELY INDIVIDUAL”

other than hard work. When I started simply is an art. People often say that that the constitutionally protected
to practice, I used to pick up old SCR’s the arguments are simplistic without rights are largely individual rights.
and read them cover to cover. While I realising the skill that goes into mak-
might not remember every judgment I ing something sound simple when it The book has been edited by me
read, I believe that gave me a ground- actually isn’t. and contains chapters by the top legal
ing in law that stands me in good stead luminaries of India including Justice
today as well. Please tell us more about your re- Madan B. Loku, Justice A. K. Sikri,
Justice B. D. Ahmed, Mukul Rohatgi,
I realise when I say this, I ignore the cently released book Sex and the Madhavi Divan, Menaka Guruswamy
fact that a very important contributing and Arundhati Katju. It also has tell-
factor in my case was my privilege. Not Supreme Court, an anthology of ing personal accounts by Ritu Dalmia,
everyone comes from a family of law- Keshav Suri and Zainab Patel who
yers. To those lawyers I say, have faith issues relating to law, gender, and were the petitioners in the cases which
and have patience. I have seen many were decided by the court. Finally,
first-generation lawyers succeed and sexuality? the chapter by Namita Bhandare, is a
many lawyers with impeccable familial The book concerns various decisions of must-read for anyone interested in the
connections fail. Family connections the Supreme Court on matters relating Me Too movement and the problem of
do help but are neither necessary nor to sex (including sexual workplace har- sexual harassment at the workplace
sufficient. assment, adultery), sexuality (the 377
judgment and the transgender judg- At the ‘BW Dialogues with Young
Who have been your guiding North ment) as well as areas where the con-
cerns of religion cross paths with those Legal Leaders and Influencers’ you
Stars and the biggest inspiration in of the individual in the most intimate
matters concerning them (the triple spoke of Diversity in the Legal Pro-
this journey? talaq judgment, the right of women
My two mentors have been my father, to enter Sabarimala). All these cases fession or rather, the lack of it. Di-
Justice B. N. Kirpal, who was the Chief relate to an innate tension between
Justice of India and Mukul Rohatgi, the concerns of the individual and her versity and inclusivity do pave the
who was my senior. constitutionally guaranteed rights on
the one hand and the demands of so- way for a thriving atmosphere. Why
From my father, I learnt that more ciety and the community on the other.
than loving law, one had to learn to love The book seeks to show how the Su- is this fact lost on so many learned
justice. From Mr Rohatgi, I learnt that preme Court has always come down on
ego has no place in a courtroom and the side of the rights of the individual, people and lawmakers?
that explaining complicated concepts which is not surprising given the fact Society is the product of the people who
live in it. Unfortunately, given India’s
colonial past and the strong tradition
of caste and patriarchy, most of the in-
fluential decision-makers are almost

62 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

inevitably upper-caste men. They have important to have sensitisation mod- for bar associations to draw up a list of
a limited experience of the society we ules for employers. lawyers and their core areas of exper-
live in, coddled as they are by their own tise to enable work to be sent to them.
privilege. Try as they might to be empa- You’ve said, ‘Merit has to be judged
thetic (and to their credit a fair number on the yardstick of opportunity’. In litigation, while your competence
do make an attempt), they cannot fully While fair opportunities were al- and luck play a part, an oft-forgotten
understand the disparity between their ready few and far between for non- virtue is resilience. To any young lawyer
own lives and the lived experiences of Ivy League graduates, Covid-19 has I say, hang in there and wait. Your turn
those who come from the oppressed or thrown another wrench in the works. will come too – just carry on working
underprivileged backgrounds. What is What would be your advice to the with that belief. So do not ever compare
needed is greater diversity and repre- new crop of lawyers on building a yourself to your peers as that would
sentation at the uppermost echelons practice. make you either envious in case others
of power so as to be able to construct a Covid 19 is a black swan event – its ef- are doing better or vain, in case they are
more just society. fects are serious but will pass with time. not. Neither envy nor vanity are good
qualities.
This is particularly important in
the judiciary since the judges are un- IN LITIGATION, WHILE YOUR
elected and hence have no obvious COMPETENCE AND LUCK PLAY
claim to democratic legitimacy. Their A PART, AN OFT-FORGOTTEN
strength comes from the moral force of VIRTUE IS RESILIENCE. TO ANY
the Constitution which they are sworn YOUNG LAWYER I SAY, HANG IN
to uphold as well as the reasoning and THERE AND WAIT. YOUR TURN
results of their decisions. It is impera- WILL COME TOO – JUST CARRY ON
tive to have diversity at that level so that WORKING WITH THAT BELIEF.”
the decisions are not made by men sit-
ting in ivory towers, immune from the Unfortunately, a lot of young lawyers What in your opinion has been the
struggles of the society they live in. do not have the luxury of simply wait-
ing it out. Part of the problem in litiga- biggest change or challenge loom-
Most accomplished lawyers say tion is that the work of a lawyer often
money is the biggest deterrent to suc- comes with visibility in court – when ing over the legal landscape of India
cess. They strongly believe interns a client sees a lawyer arguing, he may
and young lawyers should be willing be impressed with her arguments and amid Covid-19?
to work for the barter of the wealth of engage her in a matter. This of course, The technological and digital divide
knowledge. Why are fair and just sala- cannot happen in a pandemic. In these is all set to get worse. Well established
ries a utopian concept in India? circumstances, it is important to de- lawyers who have access to high-speed
velop and sustain support networks internet will now have yet another ad-
This is a matter of privilege once between young lawyers (and any estab- vantage over lawyers who come from
again. Most lawyers hiring interns lished lawyers who are willing to join). smaller towns or younger lawyers who
believe that they are doing a favour to Work can be sent to someone who is do not have the resources to have access
the interns or young lawyers they hire. in desperate need of it. We all must be to high-quality internet.
Most of them came from moneyed willing to share work and send it to
backgrounds and do not understand people who are competent but are not Read more at http://bwlegal-
the struggles a young student or a law- able to find work. It is also important world.businessworld.in/article/
yer has to go through today, especially In-Conversation-with-Saurabh-Kir-
given how expensive it has become to pal-Advocate-Supreme-Court-of-In-
live on your own in a city. Many young dia/16-12-2020-354188/
people come from smaller towns or
villages to the cities and have limited
parental support and hence need just
recompense to survive.

I think it is important on the part of
the Bar Council to step in and make
payments to interns mandatory and
also to regulate the working conditions
as well as minimum salaries. It is also

63 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

Senior Advocate “EVERYONE
Sidharth Luthra, KNOWS THE LAW
Supreme Court of BUT HOW YOU
India speaks with APPLY IT WITH
Krishnendra Joshi on STRATEGY IS
his illustrious career WHAT MAKES THE
in law, his mentors, DIFFERENCE”
litigation post the
pandemic and much Would you please tell our readers what motivated you to study law? What
more in this exclusive were the initial formative years of your professional career like?
interview with BW SIDHARTH LUTHRA: I was not keen to study law to start with, though my
father was an eminent lawyer. My elder sister Geeta chose law and our eldest
Legal World. sibling Meera is a paediatric surgeon. At school, I used to enjoy mathemat-
ics a lot and had engineering as a career option in my mind but did not take
the entrance exam. I recall taking Brilliant’s tutorials but lost interest. I was
then was encouraged by my brother-in-law Prof Daksh Lohiya, a scientist, to
do an undergraduate degree in Mathematics. I began to enjoy it but while
studying in Hindu College, I realised that I was not cut out to be an academic
in mathematics. From then on, my natural progression was towards law.
In hindsight, I wish I could have become an architect because that is an area
which interests me but I had no exposure or any understanding as to what was
required to be an architect as there was no one in our immediate circle in that field.

Interview by The initial years in the profession were interesting, I came back from Cam-
Krishnendra Joshi bridge in 1991 to work in Bhasin & Co., a prominent law firm, at a princely
salary of Rs. 1,250/- per month. My car fuel bill was more than this! Before I
left, the salary was increased to 1,500 rupees a month. After a year I had to
leave the job as my grandfather was ailing and I wanted to spend more time
with him. I did not want to practice criminal law because my father was a gi-
ant in that field and I began doing civil & commercial practice. The initial years
were interesting especially in the manner in which work used to get sourced.
I had to struggle a lot and especially after I lost my father in 1997, my struggle
increased manifold. With the support of my late mother and wife Ketaki, who

64 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

TO SUCCEED YOU
NEED 70 % HARD
WORK, 20 % INTELLI-
GENCE & 10% FOCUS
ON TIME SPENT IN
ANALYSIS, CONTEM-
PLATION & FIGURING
OUT WHAT YOU ARE
DOING & WHERE YOU
ARE GOING WRONG.

was a litigating lawyer and my siblings practising in the Supreme Court which many aspiring and young legal
and their families, I persevered as has been an evolution in the manner
there was a lot of encouragement and and style of my working with diverse professionals. Who are the men-
emotional as well as financial support. skills that are required in each court.
I would only say that to succeed you tors that you have looked up to?
What has helped you achieve & sus- need 70 per cent hard work, 20 per SIDHARTHLUTHRA: Ihaveworked
cent intelligence and 10 per cent focus with many of the great lawyers in the
tain success over a long period? on time spent in analysis, contempla- last 30 years and notable amongst
SIDHARTH LUTHRA: Frankly, a tion and figuring out what you are do- them are Mr Fali Nariman, Mr Ram
lot of my success is a consequence ing and where you are going wrong. Jethmalani, Soli Sorabji, etc. I learnt
of luck, but luck is nothing if you do It is important for a professional to a lot from my late father but lost him
not work hard for it and if you do analyse not only the successes but es- too early (in 1997). After that, I worked
not recognize and exploit the op- pecially the mistakes because it is from closely with my mentor late Mr P.R. Va-
portunities that come your way. them that you learn and it is from the kil, a father figure to me and a leader of
I was fighting for survival and had the success of others that you learn how the criminal bar & a prominent lawyer
ability to work very hard (16-18 hours a to improve yourself. The day you stop at Bombay (Mumbai). After Ketaki
day), be focused and developed myself being willing to learn is the day that started her independent practice in
as a lawyer by learning from everyone you will begin to stop growing. Then 1998, she and I used to do a lot of mat-
around me. To be successful over a pe- there will be no uphill trend as a pro- ters together with her doing the civil
riod of time, one has to be willing to fessional, but a plateau till you are over commercial part and I did the crimi-
learn always. Sometimes your success taken by younger, more hard-work- nal law aspects. My drafting improved
and the environment you are in makes ing, brighter, sharper professionals. solely because of her efforts and help.
you complacent because you may reach
the top in your area of work/court. In Your legal career has been noth- How do you see litigation changing
my case, I began with trial court, moved
to High Court and now am primarily ing short of an inspiration for post the pandemic?
SIDHARTH LUTHRA: Litigation has
changed in two ways post-Covid. The

65 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT YOUNG
PROFESSIONALS WORK HARD. EVERY-
ONE KNOWS THE LAW BUT HOW YOU AP-
PLY IT WITH STRATEGY IS WHAT MAKES
THE DIFFERENCE.

case load numbers are not just there tem. Needless to say, it troubles me Singh, a book by Mohammed Shaikh
and access to justice has got reduced that not enough lawyers understand called ‘Emperor of The Five Rivers’
because of lack of technological re- the value of trial court practice. In my on Maharaja Ranjit Singh and ‘Co-
sources and because trial courts are view, the procedural aspect of the law romandel’ by Charles Allen. I enjoy
not functioning as they used to. It is a which you can learn on the original side movies though I do not get time to see
lean period for litigators and young- whether criminal or civil or otherwise is them enough and I also enjoy music
sters joining the profession who will only from practising in the trial court. especially artists like Leonard Cohen.
now find themselves losing the oppor- Fresh law graduates must try and take
tunity of personally hearing court argu- up as many opportunities to obtain What will be your one message to
ments and viewing cross-examinations professional training and not just be
because that teaches you a lot. When limited to the appellate courts as op- aspiring and young lawyers?
you argue before a full courtroom peo- portunities are limited at present. SIDHARTH LUTHRA: I think young
ple see you. The opportunity to show- and aspiring lawyers have a wide area
case your talent is going to be lost for a How crucial is it to gain an under- of opportunities despite the Covid in-
while. Therefore youngsters will have duced slowdown but young lawyers
to look at the profession differently to standing of multiple legal systems must work hard and look for oppor-
make their presence felt in a positive tunities that can enhance and show-
manner while working from home. for lawyers today? case their talent. This profession is
SIDHARTH LUTHRA: It is essential not about shortcuts. So hard work is
What are your views on training for lawyers to understand multiple le- essential and I would recommend that
gal systems. Legal practice is no longer young professionals work hard and be
juniors and fresh law graduates in a limited to domestic jurisdiction espe- focused and enhance their creativity.
cially in the field of commercial law Everyone knows the law but how you
virtual setup? and arbitration. Indian lawyers deal- apply it with strategy is what makes
SIDHARTH LUTHRA: In my view, ing with cross border transactions have the difference. That is the only way
a senior is like a parent to the junior to understand multiple legal systems. that there will be success. I would also
and not just a mentor. Your juniors recommend that young lawyers take
are your family and if you train them What are your sources of creative time off to refresh oneself, something
well, they will carry your lineage and which I believe I did not do enough in
the work ethic and reputation of your outlet other than work? Any movies, my younger days. So now I am trying to
chamber. Juniors need to be trained make up for that over the past decade.
not only in law and the nuances of le- work of art or books that have had a
gal interpretation but also on ethical Read more at http://bwlegalworld.
values and court manners and deco- profound impact on you? businessworld.in/article/In-Conver-
rum. So as far as new law graduates SIDHARTH LUTHRA: I love to sation-with-Senior-Advocate-Sid-
are concerned, I find it troublesome read other than law and especially harth-Luthra-Supreme-Court-of-In-
that they flock to the Supreme Court, history. I enjoy photography though dia/16-11-2020-343100/
maybe because of the top-heavy sys- now I am taking photographs on my
phone and love walking and trekking
in the hills. Books that have impacted
me are ‘Zafarnama’ by Guru Gobind

66 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



In the 1980s when no ‘THERE’S A HELL
one wanted to take up OF A LOT OF AN
cases against terrorists ADVANTAGE IN
in Punjab, K. T. S. Tulsi, THE VIRTUAL
COURT, MUCH
Senior Advocate & BETTER THAN THE
Member Parliament, REAL COURT’
took it upon himself

to put duty before
safety as the Special

Prosecutor. In this
exclusive interview
with Ashima Ohri and
Krishnendra Joshi, the
gallant and stately
lawyer and politician
whose glorious journey,
persona, and body of
work are widely known,
walks down memory
lane and talks about his
motivation to study law.
He also talks about some
key milestones and life

beyond work

68 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

What motivated you to pursue law, call our society – Saturday Afternoon my memory.
Moot Society. In that moot, I used to The other is, we were having a fi-
and how were the first few years of write problems, and everyone else
was given those problems one day be- nal moot court in 1970 and this was
this glorious journey? fore and then they could prepare and about the constitutional validity of
What persuaded me to take up law we would request one or two teachers Section 498 of the IPC. And we ar-
is that I was a passionate debater in to be the judges. gued passionately because the same
college. people used to argue everywhere. We
I remember that a few of the stu- also had plans to take the civil service
In Government College, Chandi- dents who did participate in moots exam, but that day, the course of my
garh, every time there was a debate went up to the Head of the Depart- career took a turn.
anywhere, we would team up and ment and said that I should be de-
land up there. We collected lots of barred from participating in the The Chief Justice of India was pre-
trophies and we were crazy about moots. So, he says, ‘Why?’ ‘Because siding over that moot and there was
debates, a bunch of us. So, I think the every time he gets the first prize and another judge, a High Court sitting
only profession that I could perceive he knows the problem from before, judge, Justice Dillon. In the presi-
where you earn your bread by the we get to know only the previous day,’ dential remarks, the Chief Justice
spoken word was law. they said. said to the entire audience that these
students who have argued today are
So, I went to law. During my time So, the Head of the Department better than 90 per cent of lawyers in
in the law department, two events called me and he says, ‘Well congrat- my court.
motivated me a lot. One was the time ulations on the complaints about you
when I was the secretary of the Moot getting too many prizes’. He says, Well, that gave us a great high.
Court Society in the Punjab Univer- ‘What should we do?’ I said, ‘Don’t Then we went to the lake and tore up
sity, Department of Law. disbar me from participating in the our admit cards for the civil service
moots, you can bar me from the priz- exam and threw them into the lake.
As the Secretary, I decided that es’. So, that’s one thing that sticks in We thought that we are truly going to
we don’t have enough time for 100 earn our living through the spoken
moots, so, at least let us have one
moot every Saturday because then we

IN THE PRESIDENTIAL REMARKS, THE
CHIEF JUSTICE SAID TO THE ENTIRE
AUDIENCE THAT THESE STUDENTS WHO
HAVE ARGUED TODAY ARE BETTER THAN
90 PER CENT OF LAWYERS IN MY COURT.
WELL, THAT GAVE US A GREAT HIGH.
THEN WE WENT TO THE LAKE AND TORE
UP OUR ADMIT CARDS FOR THE CIVIL
SERVICE EXAM AND THREW THEM ...”

69 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

word. After that, I joined the senior see what happens’. I used to get one didn’t see you).
Mr Sarin and Mac Sarin and I are or two of the cases. Anyway, I was still protesting and
the best of friends. Mr Sarin had lots
of cases. Every day we had to draft I must mention that Mr Sarin was a started dialling my friends’ phone
the grounds of appeal of two or three very kind and very good senior. Every numbers and announced it to them,
cases, we had to do the research, we Friday evening, he used to invite us to and ended up in a celebration at the
would handwrite them and then we his chamber, both Mac and me. So, lake. But that created the pressure
used to get them typed, make the cor- he would hand over an envelope to required to succeed and I became a
rections, we would give the brief to me and then he would hand over the workaholic. I started writing a book.
the senior. envelope to his son, Mac Sarin and I would work 14 hours a day, and I
we used to get a princely sum of Rs 50 still have my book – Tulsi’s Digest of
I think that was a great training per week – that was a salary. When I Accident Claims Cases.
ground. But, I joined them on 3 July was on my own, I said, ‘I can stick it
1971, but during the December va- out and stay with my parents, what’s I thought that I will make a dif-
ference in the quality of law books
THEN MY MARRIAGE ALSO and I started following the pattern
BROUGHT ME GOOD LUCK. I of Corpus Juris Secundum in terms
BECAME A PART-TIME of indexing. Digest is all about index-
LECTURER. SO, I ENDED UP ing and the catchwords, to be able to
DOING TWO THINGS THAT ARE reach the case that you need, without
ESSENTIAL FOR SUCCEEDING. a problem. This took three years.
ONE IS THAT FOR LEARNING THE
LAW, YOU MUST WRITE. YOU Then my marriage also brought me
WRITE A BOOK AND THEN THEY good luck. I became a part-time lec-
SAY, THE SECOND-BEST IS, TEACH turer. So, I ended up doing two things
THAT SUBJECT.” that are essential for succeeding. One
is that for learning the law, you must
cations I told my friend, I’m going the problem, I have a scooter,’ which write. You write a book and then they
to be on my own’. So, he says, ‘What only two years before my father had say, the second-best is, teach that
an idiot you are, you don’t know this bought for me. subject.
profession and they are just going to
eat you up alive – and don’t get frus- The inspiration was that my father By teaching others, you also teach
trated’. one day came home and announced, yourself. I became a part-time lec-
‘We fixed you up’. I said, ‘What do you turer in 1973. I passed out in 1971.
The Inspiration mean?’ ‘We fixed up your marriage So, it was pretty good. We used to get
with a very nice girl and we have al- Rs 400 as part-time lecturer’s salary.
I said, ‘Look, if I am not going to ready said yes’. I said, ‘It’s not you get- I thought that I still had extra time
make it as a lawyer I might as well ting married. Why can’t I meet her?’ because only two or three cases were
fail now rather than 10 years later. So, So, he says to me, “Shukar kar onne coming my way in a month.
I’m going to jump into the sea, let’s tennu nai dekheya”(be thankful she
What would you say were the mie-

stones on your career path? Do tell

us about your rise from a lawyer,

who commanded fees of Rs 50 per

case to one who got offered Rs 1

crore at one point?
These were the initial years. How
did I get out of that? This is a cat
and mouse game. How do you prove
yourself until the clients come to
you and why would the clients come
to you when you are a rookie? So, I
would write articles for newspapers,
one out of 10 used to get accepted,
but that was enough for a high, which

70 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

would last another month, and then THEN AN EVENT Officer of Brooke Bond, landed up
again I would start sending. CHANGED THE there. And he says, ‘Warrants have
COURSE OF MY been issued against our Chairman
But how did I get lucky? I got lucky CAREER. ONE and we want you to come to Shimla’. I
with two events. Mr O.C. Mathur was EVENING, OUT said. ‘I am on a holiday’. He says, ‘You
the partner of J.B. Dadachandji. And OF THE BLUE, will be on holiday there also. We are
lo and behold! one morning he comes MR K. P. S. GILL going to make all the arrangement,
over and he says, ‘Tulsi, we have some LANDS UP AT you just have to go to the court for
cases of the Chairman of Lipton’s, Mr MY HOUSE, half an hour’.
Goodwin and in Punjab court, there ACCOMPANIED
are four cases, in Himachal, there are BY HIS CLASS When I still expressed my reluc-
two cases and we want you to tell me FELLOW AND tance, he said, ‘We’ll double your fee’.
what is the best course of action?’ MY FRIEND AND So, we went and got a stay order.
HE STARTED
He brought the complaint, what- DISCUSSING A Turning Point
ever papers. I read them. I said that HIS CASE.
they will be quashed. He says, ‘Are THERE WERE Then an event changed the course of
you sure?’ I said, ‘I know the law THREE CASES my career. One evening, out of the
backwards’. So, he says, ‘Alright! You AGAINST HIM” blue, Mr K. P. S. Gill lands up at my
draft a petition, I will come back in house. He was accompanied by his
the evening and then I will take the class fellow and my friend and he
train back to Delhi and we’ll go from started discussing his case. There
there, we’ll pay you for drafting’. I were three cases against him, includ-
drafted the petition, and they took ing a murder case. So, he says, ‘What
that petition to Calcutta, the head- do I do?’ I said, ‘Go for quashing, this
quarters was Calcutta and there was complaint cannot be entertained by
one, Mr Balai Ray, who later became the court’.
the Advocate General. He was a Sen-
ior Advocate at Lipton. He said I So, he pulled out a set of papers and
want to meet the person who drafted he says, ‘But we have already applied
this petition. and the High Court rejected our pe-
tition and we had gone to Supreme
So, they asked me to come to Cal- Court and the Supreme Court case
cutta. I went to Calcutta and he kept is pending. You have a look, do we
us waiting for two-and-a-half hours. have a chance?’ So, I read that and
I later learnt that he was rewriting the said, ‘This petition will be dismissed
petition in pencil. When he called us, because you haven’t raised the best
he says, ‘This is what I have written. I grounds’. So, he says, ‘What are the
want to tell you one thing, young man best grounds?’
and i.e. in criminal law, it is more im-
portant to know what not to say than I could rattle off the cases, Consti-
what to say. You don’t spend an extra tution Bench and this and that and
word in a criminal petition because they were all on my fingertips. Every
it can be misinterpreted’. So, that’s day I would do nothing else. He was
one thing I learned from him. And so shocked. I said, ‘This is an incom-
we succeeded in getting all the cases petent petition’. Then, while going,
quashed. So, my fee had risen to Rs he says, ‘Do you know who drafted
1,100 per day. it?’ I said, ‘I don’t care’. He said the
former Chief Justice has drafted it’.
I mention these figures because it’s I said, ‘But no, he hasn’t raised the
important for people to know that right grounds’.
youth is a struggle. And Rs 1,100 a
day was a princely sum. We had gone Anyway, the Supreme Court also
on a holiday to Mussoorie, when dismissed it with a direction they ap-
one Mr K. K. Sharma, the Chief Law pear (before it) and Mr Gill kept call-
ing. Those were the days. We didn’t

71 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

have any mobile phones. So, he re- Advocacy I don’t agree with aggressive law-
sent his father to meet me and he yers who think that they can intimi-
says, ‘Kanwar Pal wants you to come Do tell us a little bit about the art of date a witness, I don’t agree with
to Guwahati tomorrow’. So, I went those lawyers who think they can
and there were four other lawyers on cross-examination intimidate the judge, that’s not Ad-
that case. There were four accused, The criminal trial in India is con- vocacy.
four lawyers, and I was the lawyer ducted in a very messy manner. The
for Mr Gill. I took the order of the lawyers don’t have the opportunity Advocacy means being a gentle-
Supreme Court and we went to the to hone their skills for cross-exami- man and being courteous always.
magistrate. I kept it in front of him. nation and all. Most of the time, 99 We are in the case in pursuit of truth
I said, ‘Here is the order of the Su- per cent of the cross-examination is and let’s not spoil the atmosphere,
preme Court for compliance’. without forethought and you don’t because in that atmosphere neither
know, you’re not sure of the answer the judge nor the witness nor the
He realised that he had no choice. and yet you ask a question. prosecutor nor the defence is going
That’s how the magistrate under- to gain.
stood and granted a stay on the ar- It can be disastrous for the case.
rest. That’s all that we wanted. Once But, this way, I think lawyers are go- How do you spend your time
the stay was granted, we went on ing to be at an advantage. How much
behalf of another accused, who was time do I save? Half the day, I keep outside of work? Are you a John
not a party. That case gave me at that
time, more than a crore of rupees. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE
POSITIVE ASPECTS OF THE
I remember when I joined the PANDEMIC. I AM EVERY DAY
profession, my father took me to Mr ARGUING ON THE VIRTUAL
Sibal. Mr Hira Lal Sibal and my fa- COURT AND I FEEL THAT THE
ther were class fellows. So, Mr Sibal JUDGE IS MUCH CLOSER TO ME. I
tells me, ‘Young man, remember one CAN WATCH HIS EXPRESSIONS.”
thing, Opportunity knocks at every
door. But you have to be ready to sitting in the court waiting for the Grisham fan?
grab it. If it goes, God knows when matter, and then all of a sudden three
it’ll come. So be ready’. I think that matters will come together. This is a Yes, I read every John Grisham four
made a lot of sense and that’s what far better system, I hope we adopt it times. There’s so much you can do
made me fight hard. for good. In cross-examination, you for alleviating injustice and hardship
have to create a pattern, you have to amongst the people. We have the
Post-pandemic Practice do a lot of work and decide what is it same issues. John Grisham wrote
that you want a witness to say. about the Gray Mountain. We have
How do you see litigation changing gray mountains here. Why would the
You will stay away from that point lawyers not take up these issues? They
post-pandemic? and you will go on with relevant ques- are socially relevant and they’ll be
I think this is one of the positive as- tions or with very easy questions. You more than rewarded.
pects of the pandemic. I am every day build up a rapport with a witness, and
arguing on the virtual court and I feel then you slip in a question where he About my hobbies ... well my hobby
that the judge is much closer to me. I begins to trust you. You ask a ques- is reading fiction, but mostly legal
can watch his expressions. I can de- tion and sometimes you get awarded fiction. During the pandemic, I have
cide that this is the argument which with an excellent answer. managed to finish more than six
he is not accepting. books.

I can actually hear when they are
conferring with each other. So, there’s
a hell of a lot of advantage in virtu-
al court, much better than the real
court. There is perfect discipline. Of
course, there are bloopers going on,
we haven’t perfected the software or
the hardware, but cross-examination
will be an even greater advantage.

72 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



Founder and “DO NOT
Managing Partner DO WHAT
EVERYBODY
of Trust Legal, ELSE IS
Sudhir Mishra DOING ”
speaks with Anisha
What led you to the profession of law?
Aditya about SUDHIRMISHRA: Noonefocusedonmein1998.Ionlygot64percentinmy10th
starting out as and 59 percent in my 12th. I could only get admission to Delhi University mostly in
a lawyer from HistoryHonoursinmythirdattemptinDeshbandhucollegewhichisinSouthDelhi.
rural India who From 1992 to almost 1998, I was on the UPSC journey. I was 28 and I just had a law
got a Fulbright degreefromCampusLawCenter.Withinfivemonthssincegraduation,Iwasforced
fellowship before into a legal profession and then had to take the Bar Council of India examination.
I was with a lawyer who at that time had just two rooms. I was a Trainee with him
becoming an for six months after which I went back to my father. I told him, “If there are a hun-
environmental dred people who would succeed in the city, I’ll be one of them”. He said, “I’m sure”.
In my early days, I started working for NGOs and I was representing Wild-
lawyer and life Trust of India, World Wildlife Fund, Wildlife Protection Society of In-
attaining dia. In three years, I was already doing much better than most partners in a
law firm. I kept on doing environmental law for almost 10 years non-stop.
mainstream I would travel to the forest areas and attend workshops. I used to get informa-
success. tion to file PILs from NGOs. It was all a well-stitched plan as there were very few
lawyers practising environment law at that time. I was taken into the Interna-
tional Visitor’s leadership programme under the Fulbright programme as well.

Interview by What fascinated you about environmental law?
Anisha Aditya SUDHIR MISHRA: One of my closest friends at Campus Law Center was Raj
Kumar. Later he founded the OP Jindal University. We were inseparable in
college. He took me to the Wildlife Protection Society of India where I told him

74 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

ALTHOUGH I HAD
A SUCCESSFUL NA-
TIONAL STATURE AS
AN ENVIRONMEN-
TAL LAWYER, I LEFT
THAT COMFORT
AND SECURITY TO
SEARCH FOR A BIG-
GER CHALLENGE.
HENCE, TRUST
LEGAL WAS BORN
WITH A FULL-SERVICE PRACTICE.

I wanted to pursue environmental corporates were already getting in- ever, seeing our hunger and compe-
law. Also, when you want to do dis- volved in environmental audits. Envi- tence, they let us do media, music,
ruption, don’t do what everybody else ronment law was more than only ani- and broadcasting matters as well.
is doing. Even today when I speak to mal rights, and pollution. But this was We are advising largely to healthcare
you, we are working on cryptocur- not present in the Indian landscape. companies, some of which are Medi-
rency. We represent a lot of e-sport In 2009, I was one of the first lawyers caBazaar, Meditronics, Boston IVI,
companies, gaming companies. You who went on that route to a lot of big and many others. Our four practice
have to think of doing the practice corporates. For example, I was advis- areas of dominance are environ-
which others have not thought of, and ing Himalaya Ski Village in 2009, ment and climate change, healthcare
then try to make a practice out of it. which was one of the largest tourism and life sciences, media, music and
projects in the Himalayas. I did mat- broadcasting, and dispute resolu-
When did you finally decide to ters on environmental issues for the tion. Although I had a successful na-
Gujarat government. I was advising tional stature as an environmental
establish Trust Legal? Could you an IT company that had the largest lawyer, I left that comfort and secu-
IT Park in India, they had environ- rity to search for a bigger challenge.
please tell us about a few landmark mental clearance issues. So we start- Hence, Trust Legal was born with a
ed doing their due diligence. Then full-service practice, which is now
cases that you hold dear? the road companies told us that can the 37th best commercial law firm
SUDHIR MISHRA: I would say it you help them with the arbitration. in India as per the report released
started in 2005, although it was dor- In 2015, Zee Group came to advise by RSG Consulting London in 2019.
mant. There were hardly 2-3 people them on mining and infrastructure I came to the belief that if a client is
working with me at that time. By issues. We realized that we can also very convinced about a lawyer, he can
2010, I was travelling abroad very reg- advise them on other things. How- take you into newer practice areas.
ularly after my Fulbright programme.
I realized that you need to go into the
firm culture. In other jurisdictions,

75 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

YOU HAVE TO CREATE YOUR OWN
STORY. IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILL FIND
YOUR PURPOSE. THE MOMENT YOU
FIND YOUR OWN PURPOSE, YOU ARE
THEN COMPETING ONLY WITH YOUR-
SELF. THAT IS THE JOURNEY YOU HAVE
TO BUILD.

What do you think is the currentsce- I was always driven by emotions and SUDHIR MISHRA: I am the only
my sense of purpose to serve the client. lawyer who has trained forest and
nario of environmental law in India? This is a departure from most of the police staff across 20 states on wild-
SUDHIR MISHRA: Environmental perceived notions about lawyering. I life prosecution from 1999 to 2009.
law was in its golden age in India from was always a decision-oriented lawyer. I have done nearly 65 public action
1999 to 2010. We had Forest Benches, I was always clear that for the resolu- litigations, and conducted more than
Environment Law Committees, every tion of the issue, solving the problem 309 legal workshops in most of the
High Court was having jurisdiction for the client is the fundamental goal. national parks and wildlife centu-
over such matters. We had no NGT The second aspect is I always believed ries across India. I was also a special
at that time. We had a National Envi- in empowering and being a reverse counsel of the Gujarat government
ronmental Appellate Authority. 2013 mentor. I work with partners who for environmental matters in 2007
onwards NGT became very active. In are almost 18 years younger than me. and 2008.
2014 when NGT was at its peak, there Two of my partners have been there
was a gradual decline in the number since 2010 and 2014 respectively. I started my practice at 29. You pos-
of cases being filed. There are also Since they joined, they never thought sibly started your practice at 23. A lot
reasons for this because most of the of leaving despite many larger law of my batchmates started their practice
laws were neutral, probing, and had a firms offering them partnerships. at 24-25. So, if you do not manage to
detailed public consultation process They have been nurturing people, have a huge opening in your first year
or stricter terms stated as per the pol- staying by them, and taking reverse of practice, do not get disheartened.
lution control board which had an mentorship and understanding how Do not get over-anxious, and overly
auto-inspection process and became to work with a younger generation. worried about this. You have to create
more self-regulatory. Licensing re- In the third aspect, money is only a by- your own story. If you do that you will
quirements are being reduced now. product. You have to walk the journey. find your purpose. The moment you
This is because governments believe I have never thought about it, more find your own purpose, you are then
that there has to be a balance between than building client relationships. competing only with yourself. That is
environmental issues and infrastruc- The fourth aspect is, having a de- the journey you have to build.
ture development of the country. tachment with everything, with re-
gards to how many clients you have, Read more at http://bwle-
Over the last 22 years, what has how many people refer you, etc. galworld.businessworld.in/
article/-Don-t-do-what-every-
helped you achieve goals? What is your message to our read- body-else-is-doing-Founder-and-
SUDHIR MISHRA: First, integrity, Managing-Partner-of-Trust-Legal-
trust, and a huge sense of gratitude to ers and the lawyers of the future? Sudhir-Mishra/14-07-2020-297249/
the client. Right from the first matter,

76 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



“OUR CORE VALUES OF
DEMOCRACY AND OUR
DEMOGRAPHIC DIVIDEND
IN THE FORM OF YOUNG
PEOPLE PROVIDE A FERTILE
GROUND FOR
INDIAN LAW
SCHOOLS TO
ACHIEVE
EXCELLENCE”

Interview by
Gareema Ahuja

Dr C. Raj Kumar, Vice-
Chancellor, Jindal Global
University shares highlights of
the glorious 11-year journey of
Jindal Global Law School. He also
lauds the visionary and farsighted
ideas mentioned in the National
Education Policy in this enriching
dialogue with Gareema Ahuja of
BW Legal World

78 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

Please tell us about your journey Madras, after which I came to Delhi Prof. Parmanand Singh – this was
to join University of Delhi’s Faculty during the period 1994-1997.
from specialising in human rights of Law, where I did my LL.B. Like
many students who come to Delhi Of course, like many students
to working in a law firm in New from different parts of the country, who ended up studying law, I did
I was deeply inspired by the diver- not want to think about actually
York. How did it all start? How did sity of India. I, for the first time, met getting into legal practice immedi-
students from across the country ately. Most of my batchmates did
you decide to join academia? and that was a very inspirational that. I was curious about the study
Well, thank you so much. And first of experience. And Delhi University of law and was deeply interested in
all, I want to really appreciate the ex- is a remarkable institution from the study of Constitutional law and
cellent work that BW Businessworld the standpoint of bringing together human rights. Unlike most people,
is doing in bringing together indi- all kinds of people from across the I ended up joining the National Hu-
viduals and institutions and creat- country, and sometimes even from man Rights Commission as a stu-
ing a new imagination for continuity around the world. I took my legal dent intern and began work in the
to a lot of interesting discourse and education very seriously. I was not field of human rights, although I was
discussions and debates surround- only profoundly inspired but also a graduate at that time. I was again
ing some of the most important is- immensely benefited from the ex- hugely fascinated by the extraor-
sues of our time. So, thank you very traordinary group of teachers who I dinary set of challenges relating to
much for that and it’s such a pleasure had the privilege to be mentored by. human rights that the country was
to meet you. The most notable ones being Prof. facing and the role and importance
M.P. Singh, Prof. B.B Pandey and and contribution of institutions of
I’m originally from a place called human rights, in particular the Na-
Kanyakumari and I did my early
schooling there and the rest in Chen-
nai. I did my undergraduate studies
in Commerce from Loyola College,

WE ALSO HAVE HISTORICALLY EVOLVED
IDEAS OF INSTITUTION BUILDING. INSTI-
TUTION BUILDING IN INDIA PREDATES
OXFORD AND BOLOGNA AND ANY OTHER
GREAT UNIVERSITY ANYWHERE IN THE
WORLD. SO WE WANT TO BRING SOME OF
THAT CIVILISATIONAL HERITAGE AND
IDEAS TO THE CONTEMPORARY CONTEXT

79 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

tional Human Rights Commission. I was struck by the fact that Oxford of establishing a world-class uni-
did a project related to prison stand- was an 800-year-old university, and versity in India. Of course, it took a
ards and prisonisation and how to that India too had a civilization and decade for me to realise that dream.
improve the quality of correctional history as well as great institutions During those years I also received a
administration as well. That’s when dating back to over 2,000 years ago fellowship to study at Harvard Law
I got the Rhodes scholarship to go in the form of Nalanda and Taxila School and eventually completed
to Oxford. universities. my master’s there, worked as a law-
yer in New York, taught at New York
As I mentioned earlier, I grew These two thoughts were in my University, practiced law in New
up in South India. I grew up in a mind, and so when I was in Oxford, York City to become an attorney at
middle-class family. My father is a I really thought why can’t we have law, and then, of course, moved to
professor and my mother is a doctor. universities like this? And when I Japan, where I did a teaching fellow-
The opportunity to come to Delhi say this, I really mean institutions ship at the Meiji University and the
was already a very substantial finan- that are focused on providing intel-
cial commitment from my parents.
Therefore, it was unthinkable and IN 1998 I GOT THE IDEA OF CRE-
unimaginable for me to even re- ATING THIS UNIVERSITY WHEN
motely aspire to go abroad. The rea- I WAS WALKING INTO ALL SOULS
son I could do that eventually was COLLEGE AT OXFORD, WHERE I
thanks to the Rhodes scholarship, HAD ONE OF MY TUTORIAL MEET-
and in fact, the only thing that I had INGS WITH MY PROFESSOR AND
applied for was the Rhodes scholar- MENTOR, ROGER HOOD. IT IS
ship because I was aware that this THEN THAT I GOT THE IDEA OF
scholarship will not only take care WANTING TO DO SOMETHING
of my tuition and other expendi- LIKE THIS IN INDIA
tures but also my travel and money
for clothing, food and other utilities. lectually engaging environments Toin University, Yokohama.
When you are from a middle-class through strong emphasis on teach- Finally, in 2002, I moved to Hong
family in India, getting access to ing smaller classrooms and tutorial
good education in India is a big bur- systems, on research and scholar- Kong City University’s School of
den in itself, and you simply can’t ship and publications and the func- Law. There I began my academic ca-
afford to go abroad. So receiving tioning of the research centres and reer. Now, of course, to answer your
the scholarship was very important. institutes advancing the cause of question, that journey all through
Let’s say that the aspiration to get knowledge creation, and essentially was also part of an effort to discover
the scholarship, and the fact that I attracting students from across the the idea of creating a world-class
got the Rhodes scholarship is what country and around the world. university in India. And I travelled
enabled me to go to Oxford, and around the world. I looked at uni-
that’s where my academic journey, That was an extraordinary experi- versities in Hong Kong, Singapore,
intellectual journey and, of course, ence that I was privileged to have, South Korea, Taipei, Japan, Austral-
my institution-building aspiration and that’s when, literally in the win- ia, North America, western Europe
began. ter of 1998, I dreamt about the idea and, of course, mainland China.

Please share with us the mile-

stones of JGLS’s 11-year journey.

How did the first meeting with

Naveen Jindal happen? What

are the challenges that you have

faced so far?
Well, you know, like many Indian
students who study abroad, I was
also deeply struck by what I had ex-
perienced in Oxford University – I

80 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

And the more I looked around YOUNG PEOPLE in Hong Kong. I would talk to him
the world, the more I was convinced NEED TO BE IN- about the idea of creating a world-
about three things. First, I was con- SPIRED BY THE class university in India and during
vinced that we need to reimagine the EXPERIENCE those conversations we talked about
entire university and higher educa- OF BEING IN AN three things. We talked about him
tion ecosystem in India. I was also INSTITUTION making a substantial financial com-
convinced that the future of Indian AND THAT IN- mitment to build a world-class uni-
higher education is going to be driv- SPIRATION FOR versity. We also talked about the idea
en by the idea of private universi- MANY OF OUR of a not-for-profit institution, where
ties created through philanthropic STUDENTS IS the creation of the institution is go-
initiatives through benefactors who BASED UPON ing to be based upon a not-for-profit
are prepared to make a long-term NOT ONLY vision, where the institution is going
commitment towards building in- WHAT THEY to be philanthropically enabled and
stitutions of global excellence. The EXPERIENCE not from the standpoint of the typi-
third thing I was convinced about IN THE CLASS- cal private Indian university. The
was that the future of India is also ROOM, BUT third thing we talked about was his
going to be shaped by universities WHAT THEY commitment to academic freedom,
and higher education institutions. EXPERIENCE institutional autonomy and inde-
And that’s where we need to focus OUTSIDE THE pendence, wherein the university’s
on with regard to the future of In- CLASSROOM governance will be based upon the
dia. You know, the ideas of research decisions that the faculty members
are not only going to be driving the and the teams and the administra-
disciplines relating to STEM and tive staff of the university will take in
medicine but also the entire gamut the interest of the institution. Those
of liberal arts, humanities, social are the sort of pillars on the basis of
sciences, professional degrees such which an institution can be truly
as law and architecture and a whole global and successful.
range of disciplines.
Mr Jindal, to his extraordinary
I wrote a paper on ‘Establishing credit and farsighted vision, made
India’s First Global University’ dur- those commitments as early as 2007.
ing those years and I got a chance to In late 2007, he invited me to move
meet the then India’s Law Minister, to India and I moved from Hong
HR Bharadwaj in August 2006 who, Kong to India in early 2008. From
in turn, introduced me to Mr Naveen January to April 2008, I was trying
Jindal, who was then a Member of to understand India myself as I was
Parliament or MP. He was passion- returning to India after a decade of
ate about India, and had studied in living abroad. By April 2008 I quit
the United States -- he did his mas- my job in Hong Kong and began the
ter’s from the University of Texas, process of institution building along
Dallas. He was someone who was with a wonderful group of people,
deeply passionate about the cause led and supported by Mr Jindal.
of nation-building. He, as you may
know, fought a famous case in In- Last year, Jindal Global Law
dia which led to the right to fly the
national flag for private individuals, School hired 103 teachers, which
which was a major decision of the
Supreme Court of India. was a great move during the pan-

I got to meet with Mr Jindal in Oc- demic. What kind of opportunities
tober 2006. I spent a year essentially
talking to him and discussing ideas. has the pandemic brought in legal
At this point, I was still teaching
education and for the law school?
One of the remarkable things about
our university, which I will share
with you, is that we have consistently

81 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

maintained a phenomenal faculty- bers, including the addition of new hostel rooms, to the playgrounds,
student ratio. In fact, right at the schools or new programmes, has all of which matter in shaping the
beginning of our journey in 2009, been matched, and even exceeded personality.
we started off with nearly 1:15 facul- when it comes to recruitment of
ty-student ratio. Quite remarkably, faculty, creation of additional in- In 1998 I got the idea of creating
year on year we expanded our school frastructure, creating new spaces this university when I was walking
and increased our student numbers for our students, new opportuni- into All Souls College at Oxford,
significantly. Normally what tends ties for them to have a qualitatively where I had one of my tutorial meet-
to happen in any university setting improved campus life. Now, this is ings with my professor and mentor,
is that as you grow you end up hav- something that is our commitment Roger Hood. It is then that I got the
ing more students in the university, to JGU’s students. idea of wanting to do something
but you don’t match it with hiring like this in India. I am pretty sure
of more faculty members. On the Ultimately, universities and insti- that every day and many times in a
other hand, OP Jindal Global Uni-
versity is an exception to that rule WE NEED TO RECOGNISE THAT
and principle, which is mostly seen WE NEED TO BUILD A CULTURE
in universities. As we expanded our OF RESEARCH IN OUR UNIVER-
schools from one to two to three SITIES. OUR UNIVERSITIES IN
to now 10, and as we moved from, GENERAL, INCLUDING LAW
say, a hundred students to 2,000 to SCHOOLS, ARE AT BEST TEACH-
3,000 to 5,000 to now 6,500, and ING INSTITUTIONS; HOWEVER,
as we created more programmes, THEY DON’T DO TEACHING OR
our faculty-student ratio essentially RESEARCH AS MUCH AS THEY
came down from 1:15 to 1:13 to 1:12 SHOULD BE DOING
to 1:11 to 1:10 and now it’s 1:8. It’s a
phenomenal achievement but, most tutions are about shaping the lives of day, the students of JGLS are facing
importantly, it’s also a signalling young people. Young people need to those moments. An institution has
process of an institution wherein we be inspired by the experience of be- the responsibility to constantly work
will not compromise on our commit- ing in an institution and that inspi- towards creating that ecosystem
ment to maintaining high quality ration in particular for many of our conducive to such moments because
and we will be constantly invest- residential students is based upon you know that learning today can
ing our resources in hiring the best not only what they experience in the happen without even actually com-
minds and having enough and more classroom, but what they experience ing to a university. You can actually
people even when we will expand. outside the classroom. Be it in rela- sit in your own rooms. Go to Cour-
tion to the extracurricular activities, sera. or even Edx for that matter and
I want to say this because since the sports activities, the cultural ac- you can still learn a lot. But what you
you have been our student as well, tivities, the various conversations can’t experience in those contexts is
many of our students sometimes that they end up having in spaces the opportunity to engage, to devel-
do feel that we have grown a lot right from the dining halls to their op a deeper sense of understanding
and that’s quite natural, right? You
have been in that space. And people
are very conscious of those spaces,
and as more and more pupil come,
students are concerned about how
much attention we will be giving to
the Jindal experience.

And I want to say this with a com-
plete sense of responsibility that
we have been deeply committed
to this idea, and because of which
every expansion in our student num-

82 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

of each other, to work towards be- WE NEED TO things and to be able to see how we
lieving in your own ideas, to be able BE READY TO can work towards implementing
to interact with people, to develop BENCHMARK the policy. Second, we need to rec-
values of empathy and sympathy OURSELVES ognise that we need to build a cul-
and humility and gracefulness. All AND EVEN BE ture of research in our universities.
those things happen when you en- ABLE TO BE Our universities in general, includ-
gage. In a context in which you are RANKING OUR- ing law schools, are at best teaching
constantly reading with people, as SELVES ON A institutions; however, they don’t do
faculty, students or staff members, GLOBAL RANK- teaching or research as much as they
you appreciate diversity. You believe ING PLATFORM should be doing. Third, we should be
in the values of pluralism. All those SO THAT WE able to attract the best minds into
things are possible only when you KNOW WHERE academia. It is one of the long-term
engage and meet with people. WE STAND IN challenges that we’re facing. Most of
THE WORLD our institutions are suffering from
Since you’ve taught in a lot of oth- AND ACCORD- mediocrity, which is institutional-
INGLY TAKE ised and deeply embedded in their
er universities from Hong Kong to STEPS TO- faculty. We need to attract the best
WARDS minds from India and around the
Tokyo, what changes do we need CHANGING world. Fourthly, we need to become
THAT less insecure about ourselves. We
to make or how can India reach a need to be able to embrace and even
take the best practices from around
level where we become a part of the world. We need to challenge
ourselves before being self-critical
the global education system? and to be able to draw upon the ex-
Thank you so much for that ques- periences from different parts of the
tion. I will start by saying that In- world and see what we can do.
dia has enormous potential to build
world-class universities and trans- And the last thing I would say is
formative law schools. And there are that we need to be ready to bench-
a number of reasons for that. First mark ourselves and even be able
of all, we are a vibrant democracy. to be ranking ourselves on a global
We are the place of ideas. We have ranking platform so that we know
an extraordinary opportunity for where we stand in the world and ac-
people to come up with new ideas. cordingly take steps towards chang-
We are a young nation with a rich ing that. So if we start doing these
demographic dividend. We also have things, I’m confident that we will
historically evolved ideas of institu- be able to be leaders in the world
tion building. Institution building of higher education, because of our
in India predates Oxford and Bolo- core values of democracy and plu-
gna and any other great university ralism and our deep commitment
anywhere in the world. So we want to rule of law and access to justice
to bring some of that civilisational and our belief and faith in demo-
heritage and ideas to the contempo- cratic institutions and democratic
rary context. practice, and the fact that we have a
demographic dividend in the form
And, of course, the fourth thing of young people. All these things
I would say is that the young peo- provide a fertile ground for Indian
ple are aspiring and wanting to see universities and Indian law schools
a change in India. They want to be to achieve excellence.
part of the change as well. So these
are some of the reasons why I am
optimistic.

But we need to do a lot. First of
all, we need to embrace the nation-
al education policy for all its good

83 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

Rabindra “THERE
Jhunjhunwala, Senior WILL
BE A
Partner in Corporate REBOOT! ”
Law Practice at
Khaitan & Co., What motivated you to study law? How was your experience as a law
student in those years?
Mumbai speaks with RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA: I come from a family of lawyers,
Anisha Aditya about whether it is my father, my sister, my cousins, my father’s siblings and
studying law at NLSIU, cousins, their descendants, etc. There are far too many lawyers in the fam-
ily, 25/30 or even more. So, it was popular in the household. I must
Bangalore, moving say it was not my first preference, I always wanted to become a doctor!
to Mumbai 2001 to I had a distinct experience of having studied in two completely different
establish the Mumbai setups – before NLSIU, Bangalore I was enrolled in a local law college in
practice of Khaitan Calcutta. It was a very different way of teaching. Early morning classes, at-
& Co., building client tendance was not compulsory, no project submissions or exams in the first
relationships and the two years of the course. Things have of course changed considerably now.
impact of COVID-19 on Comparatively, NLSIU, Bangalore was very different. The whole model of im-
parting legal education was brand new, starting from the five-year integrated
FDI in India course and the requirement to stay on campus. Things were structured and
disciplined, it was like being in a school. It was also very competitive – since
the class was chosen based on your performance in an all India entrance exam.

Interview by Why did you decide to move from the law college in Calcutta to National
Ashima Ohri
Law School, Bangalore?
RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA: My father was instrumental in my decision
making. I was since 1990 already working at Khaitan & Co as a paralegal, and my
senior assigned me to work as an aid to Dr. Madhava Menon for a conference in
Calcutta. I landed up spending a considerable amount of one on one time with Dr.
Menon and at the end of the conference, Dr. Menon told my father, “What is this
guy doing here? And why is he wasting his time?” Those were somewhat his words.
Dr. Menon was seen as a big educationist and he suggested to my father that I
write the NLSIU all India entrance exam. He also asked my father to send me
away to NLSIU for two weeks to understand what living on campus means, to re-
set some expectations, and also prepare for the entrance exam. Those days there
were no law school coaching centres. I spent two whole weeks on NLSIU campus,
getting to know campus life, preparing, making new friends, sharing books, and

84 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

IF WE PLAY OUR
CARDS RIGHT, I
THINK INDIA WILL
STILL BE A SOUGHT-
AFTER ECONOMY
IN THIS REGION.
WE WILL SEE
OPPORTUNISTIC
INVESTMENTS, A
RISE IN STRESS/DIS-
TRESS DEAL ACTIVITY, MONETIZATION
OF GOOD ASSETS.

food with some very kind seniors who takeovers, mostly from China. If we travel yet be more connected, there
I will never forget. That is how I start- play our cards right, I think India will will be more efficiency in leased office
ed my journey at NLSIU, Bangalore. still be a sought-after economy in spaces. Technology will become more
this region. We will see opportunistic important, we will learn how to adopt
What has been the impact of investments, a rise in stress/distress technology and not run away. There
deal activity, monetization of good as- will be new opportunities to reinvent
COVID on FDI in India? Do you think sets, and the sale of non-core assets. ourselves. Those with good leadership
and a true and strong partnership
the govt should be more amenable Do you think there will be changes construct will do better than others.

to FDI post the pandemic? in the strategic operations and ad- How has the pandemic been for you?
RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA:
There will be a reboot. The post- ministration in the way the work- Other than work, how have you kept
COVID world is already looking very
different. Normalcy is going to take a force of law firms function after the yourself busy during the pandemic?
long, long time. Demands are going to RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA:
change. There is going to be recalibra- pandemic? As an individual, I am socially very ac-
tion, and it will happen in multiple RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA: tive. I am always making plans and ex-
ways. We will see M&A getting im- Yes, there is going to be a certain ecuting them. I am chasing initiatives.
pacted globally. But at the same time amount of recalibration. We will see So, it is difficult for me to sit idle. My
new opportunities will come our way. more people choosing to work from weekends are as busy (if not busier)
Yes, FDI is going to get impacted but home, it will be more acceptable to as the weekdays – there also used to
it will also bring new opportunities. firms and be a new normal. Lots of new be a lot of sports, primarily cricket
I think we will see some exodus from measures and precautions will be- before the lockdown. These were my
China, and the tightening of regimes come part of our daily lives. There will coping mechanisms to deal with stress
globally to prevent opportunistic be rationalization everywhere, clients
will want more for less, we will see less

85 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

YOUNG LAWYERS SHOULD RETHINK
THEIR STRATEGY ABOUT WHAT PRAC-
TICE AREA THEY ARE PLANNING TO
JOIN. FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEBODY WHO IS
LOOKING AT BEING A REAL ESTATE LAW-
YER NEEDS TO KEEP IN MIND THE TYPE
OF WORK MAY UNDERGO CHANGE.

and recharge myself. I have kept up Conversation with friends and doctors to join. For example, somebody who
the activity levels during these times in the different specializations as my is looking at being a real estate law-
and done several things. Even before guests, who have spoken on relevant yer needs to keep in mind the type of
the lockdown, I started a COVID-19 aspects of the current situation apart work may undergo change. Always
initiative in the firm, we tested work- from other health-related subjects, be positive and see the glass half full.
ing from home, adopted technology, both mental and physical. I host a There will be a lot of cynicism around
put several SOPs in place, organized show for our corporate group where you, learn to ignore some of it but
learning sessions for clients on how we nominate a person as a celebrity on keep your mind open. Pancakes did
to be prepared for the worst-case the show and pose questions to the col- not fall from the sky, there is no short-
scenarios, got a group of lawyers to league to get to know the person better. cut to hard work, and reward for hard
put together a resource centre which I have also been active in the kitch- work is more work. I still believe that
has been available on the firm’s web- en, creating new and exciting things no work is too small, so please do not
site – we thought out of the box and to further my love for eating (more give up small things. The devil is al-
distinguished ourselves from others. than cooking) and sharing it with ways in the details, give it a hundred
my building friends. The lockdown per cent and take pride in your work.
Taking advantage of the lockdown I has been a revelation in some ways,
started on a few simple close to heart many positives in a negative situa- Stay hungry, passionate, and driven,
projects. These are growing at differ- tion. Few more ideas are brewing! at the same time make sure that you
ent rates and touched many people in are a good human being. Make sure
various ways. “Saving the Shramiks” What is your message for all the you have a life outside of work so that
was a heart-warming project started when you come back to work on Mon-
with some fellow alumni of NLSIU, young lawyers building their road- day, you are recharged. Follow your
which has served food kits, cooked passions outside of work, it will keep
means, and bottled water to over maps ahead? you happy and energized. My motto
120,000 laborers boarding Shramik RABINDRA JHUNJHUNWALA: in life – work hard, but party harder!
trains across 9 stations in four major Since no one is perfect, find your
Indian cities, and at relief camps. I strength and qualities, then keep Read more at http://bwlegal-
decided to interview my father-in- finding ways to distinguish yourself world.businessworld.in/article/
law who is a paediatrician in Kolkata from others, create a niche for your- In-Conversation-with-Rabindra-
and get some answers related to kids self. I like to work in a team, and have Jhunjhunwala-Senior-Partner-in-
health for friends and family, and this always preferred to play team sports Corporate-Law-Practice-at-Khaitan-
turned out to be a weekly Lockdown rather than solo sports. Young lawyers Co-Mumbai/26-06-2020-291515/
should rethink their strategy about
what practice area they are planning

86 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021



“REGULATORY
UNCERTAINTY
SPOOKING FOREIGN

INVESTOR”
ZIA MODY

In an interview with BW Legal World, Zia Mody,
Corporate Lawyer and Businesswoman, talks
about financial system in India and industry.

Interview by You are in the business of providing legal services
Abhinav Trivedi
and run a successful law firm, AZB & Partners. Please

give us your general perception of the economy and

how your business has been affected by the recent

developments.
ZIA MODY: I think the answer about the economy is
quite obvious. The statistics show contracting growth.
When the uptick will start is anybody’s guess. What has
to be resolved is the catharsis of the NPAs in the books
of the banks, and this could be done by fresh injec-
tion of confidence in the financial system. Some NB-
FCs are healthy and performing well and businesses
are also getting access to funds from alternate sources.
There is a fair amount of pain, especially in the SME sec-
tor simply because of the ripple effect on the ecosystem as
a result of stress on the big players. I think that no one is
focusing on them and even the banks are not responding
adequately to their call for help. As the alternate supply of
capital also gets stressed, and there is nowhere to turn to,
the government has become conscious of the problem and
appears to be focusing on helping the SMEs. It is, however,
very important that it is not too little too late.

88 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

GST & DEMONETIZATION WHICH CAME
IN AROUND THE SAME TIME, WERE EX-
TREMELY STRESSFUL TO SEVERAL PARTS
OF THE ECONOMY. I THINK THE GOVERN-
MENT FELT SPIRITUALLY AND PHILO-
SOPHICALLY THAT THEY SHOULD BE
WEEDING OUT UNACCOUNTED MONEY.

Photograph by Ritesh Sharma 89 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

When you speak to your corpo- Considering demonetisation & the the enablers of digital money and
the fact that we have payments being
rate clients or others in the in- introduction of GST, do you think made through mobile phones, cou-
pled with the success of the ‘jan dhan
dustry, how do they view the the government has the right in- yojana’ and other positive steps,
we appear to be moving slowly but
last decade, so far as the NPA tent but it somewhat miscalculat- surely towards the less cash-based
economy. I believe that our problems
crisis and stress on the finan- ed how things work on the ground? are so large and have been there for
ZIA MODY: GST and demonetiza- so long that you can’t expect a quick
cial system are concerned? tion which came in around the same fix from any government and I am
ZIA MODY: Hindsight is always time, were extremely stressful to sev- a clear believer in small steps. The
20-20, and it might be convenient eral parts of the economy. I think the question is whether the small steps
to find someone to blame for the government actually felt spiritually
distress, but not fair. I agree that the and philosophically that they should
regulators could have followed up be weeding out unaccounted money.
on the red flags raised in case of, say,
a systemic NBFC, rather than just OUR PROBLEMS HAVE BEEN
highlighting those red flags. It would THERE FOR SO LONG THAT YOU
appear that nobody was willing to CAN’T EXPECT A QUICK FIX FROM
bell the cat and address each of those ANY GOVERNMENT AND I AM
flags. The system always appears to A CLEAR BELIEVER IN SMALL
work adequately till the music stops. STEPS. THE QUESTION IS WHETH-
The problem was recognised after ER THE SMALL STEPS WE ARE
the then RBI Governor, Raghuram TAKING NOW, WOULD, IN, SAY, 10
Rajan, started calling out banks on YEARS, BE PERCEIVED AS STEPS
the issue of bad loans. His effort in TAKEN IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
getting all the banks in one room to
discuss the issue, formally and infor- The fact that a lot of it came back is we are taking now, would, in, say, 10
mally, marked the beginning of the being addressed separately by them. years, be perceived as steps taken in
whole exercise. It led to a concerted I don’t know the exact numbers but the right direction. Now, who can
inter-creditor effort to deal with the it would appear that almost the same say that cleaning up the NPAs is not
problem, which effort was not there amount of unaccounted money has good. The question is if the process
before. I do feel, in hindsight, that it been generated again. So, the real is- has been sufficiently benign or less
could have worked better with the sue the government needs to answer disruptive than it could have been.
lenders having small exposures not is, are we better off after the exercise? So, in some cases the answer would
stifling the resolution of the larger The next is, has it changed sufficient be “yes” and in the some cases the
pie. Promoters of the defaulting people into the digital economy so answer would be “no”.
companies banked on the disunity of that cash is not the preferred method
the creditors to achieve delay. Ironi- of payment. But if you look at the way As far as India is concerned, our
cally, in some cases, the delay actu- the government is encouraging all
ally resolved some of the problems the unified payment systems and all tax rules are complicated, we have
because it gave time to the system to
have the money flowing again. Today, the highest import duty amongst
if you ask some borrowers, the real
problem is that it is not possible to
ease the money back into the system.
Also, look at the real estate crisis.
The sales are very slow and that has
a knock-on effect on everything. The
lenders are unable to give time to the
sector to recover because there is no
flexibility. I think some of our solu-
tions have been knee-jerk consider-
ing the enormity of the situation.

90 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

the developing economies. Why IN THE LAST ruption; it may be a solution which
THREE YEARS, gets things done in a timely manner.
can we not make things simpler? WHAT I HAVE But, I think it is also a capability issue
ZIA MODY: We have a very com- SEEN IS THAT in some of the government depart-
plicated federal structure to start UNLIKE BE- ments. On the positive side, so much
with. We have states which demand FORE, WE ARE of doing business in India has be-
their fair share of the resources, as LISTENED TO come transparent. You upload eve-
they should. GST which the then MORE THAN rything online and everything is now
FM put together was an enormous EVER BEFORE. available for everyone to see. There
achievement simply because it ap- NOBODY IS is less opaqueness. And, so, decision-
peared an impossible task to have an SAYING THAT making is easier if one’s paperwork is
agreement on the sharing formula. WHAT WE SAY in order. The flip side is how soon do
The Centre had to guarantee certain WILL BE AC- you clear the paperwork? Because in
amount of revenue to make it work. CEPTED, BUT this country, delay is death. Look at
So, yes, of course, things could be THE FACT IS litigation. Today, it is clear that the
made simpler. When you’re talking THAT WE ARE biggest litigant is the government.
about GST – that was an attempt in MAKING CER- There are a lot of cases where the
simplification and I think in the mid TAIN POINTS, I government is a party only because
term it will pay off. But I think the THINK THAT IS so much money which has to be
rules which get changed have to be PROGRESS. paid to the private sector is clogged.
thought through better. Now nobody
can say that the government can nev- Talking about trade policies you
er change anything. Of course, it is
absolutely their prerogative. But the mentioned a lot of foreign in-
thought process which goes in, the
effective consultation, with the effec- vestors are ready to invest dry
tive stakeholders and then not nec-
essarily sticking to the position that powder but there are a lot of
their initial view was right – the pro-
cess of dialogue becomes very impor- uncertainties.
tant. Now, I am on some committees ZIA MODY: So, if you regulate hos-
of the government. As a law firm, too, pitals – somebody buys a hospital
we do a decent amount of advocacy. and then you change the rule on
Let me tell you that in the last three pricing of drugs or medical devices,
years, what I have seen is that un- or you say that hospitals should not
like before, we are listened to more make profit. That spooks the inves-
than ever before. Nobody is saying tor. The foreign investor has not
that what we say will be accepted, come to India to do charity. Every-
but the fact is that we are making thing goes well as long as the busi-
certain points, I think they are be- ness case works. When you look at
ing digested more and I think that clients investing into infrastructure,
is progress. So the first thing is the apart from just roads, look at waste
openness to listening and the next management or airports or ports,
thing is – in a complicated economy, there is always the worry on tariffs.
how do you really translate that into Will they change? Will there be some
your ease for doing business. Now, if dispute that will come up which will
one claims that one can set up a com- threaten the lease or concession
pany in one day, it is hogwash. It is a agreement? So, pricing of uncer-
pain in the neck for a foreigner to set tainty is to our disadvantage.
up a company in India. Small steps
should be taken which can ease the Read more at http://bwlegalworld.
pain. It’s not only about tackling cor- businessworld.in/article/Regulato-
ry-Uncertainty-Spooking-Foreign-
Investor-Zia-Mody-Corporate-Law-
yer-/06-03-2020-185675/

91 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

‘THERE’S A NEED FOR
A VIBRANT CONTRACT

ENFORCEMENT
MECHANISM AND SPEEDY

ENFORCEABILITY OF
RIGHTS’

Seema Jhingan, Please allow us a peek into your illustrious journey in law. Where did this jour-
Founding Partner,
ney begin and are there any goals that remain to be achieved?
LexCounsel Law I started my career as a young lawyer in 1994 with Singhania & Co., when there were
Offices, talks fewer women lawyers and corporate law firms. After a year in litigation, I found
my true calling in corporate, commercial, and transactional law which I greatly
about her success enjoy till date. I was mentored by the late J. K. Gupta, who guided me in the art of
in law and her advocacy and encouraged me to focus on the core of the legal issues among varied
and often conflicting facts and issues. It was an exciting time, as India was in the
thoughts on some cusp of economic liberalisation post the new 1991 industrial policy. This gave us
of the monumental extensive opportunity to work with foreign investors on cross-border transactions.
legislative changes From foreign collaboration to joint ventures/technology agreements to share-
holders agreements, exchange control regulations, minority protection, foreign
in recent years exchange remittance and regulatory investment approvals, I got great exposure in
core corporate and transactional matters. The challenge of supporting large clients
Interview by in their investments in India, ensuring correctness of opinions to briefing seniors,
Ashima Ohri was exciting as well as daunting.

After a long stint with Singhania & Co. and Titus & Co, we started LexCounsel
in 2004 as a small firm with little resources, no support or affiliations, no clients or
premises/infrastructure. But since then, our firm has grown in size, clients, team
and reputation. However, there are many miles to cover yet, including creating more
offices of the Firm across India to create accessibility for clients to avail of quality
legal services locally at cost-effective rates.

What helped you emerge as a leader in your industry and what advice would

you have for others who want to set off in a similar direction?
Self-belief, consistency of effort and attention to details helped me shape my initial
years of practice. In the subsequent years, my deep interest in law practice and pas-
sion for keeping the client’s interest at the centre of our services shaped my career.
Young lawyers will need to combine unrelenting hard work with attributes such as
persistence, ability to read, interpret law and convince, focus on quality work etc.
Short cuts in law practice seldom work. Bring passion and purpose to your work,
regardless of whether you are pursuing litigation or corporate practice, and client
referrals and success will not be far behind. Also, for young women lawyers, never
bring or let others bring gender to your profession. For instance, since the begin-

92 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

GOING FORWARD,
LEGAL TEAMS
WOULD
CONTINUE TO
FOLLOW A HYBRID
MODEL OF WORK”

meetings, considering the ragging pan-
demic.

ning, I used to see myself as an advocate needed as the industry needs a vibrant What role can a law firm or an indi-
and never as a woman advocate (even contract enforcement mechanism and
during the times when there were fewer speedy enforceability of rights. Intro- vidual play in making workplaces
women lawyers). Majority of the bar- duction of mediation process before
riers and roadblocks are in our minds litigation and establishment of com- truly diverse and inclusive?
and when we do not get defeated by mercial courts are intended to bring Each of us has the responsibility of
them, others are also forced to give way. ease of enforcement of commercial and making workplaces diverse and inclu-
contractual rights. sive, but it starts from the top in most
We have seen a spate of legislative organisations. For instance, our Firm
How has the legal services industry is gender-neutral and sharing of op-
changes that have been monumen- portunities is based on performance
transformed in the past year? What and competency rather than social, eco-
tal in reforming India’s legal frame- nomic, gender, or for that matter ‘which
are your predictions for the future? law school’ extraneous considerations.
work. In your practice which recent The year 2020 has been a phenomenal From the partners to senior lawyers to
year in the learning curve and adjust- staff, each of us attempts to ensure that
development has positively impact- ing to new dynamics. Practices such biases are avoided. Teamwork, sensi-
as virtual courts, virtual meetings and tivity, and collective growth promote
ed the industry? conferences, online research and deliv- harmony at workplaces.
Ease of doing business needs uniform ery, and most important work-from-
licensing processes and labour-friendly home (which was unthinkable in 2019) In the law firm practice of the future,
laws. The recent consolidation of regis- have become a reality overnight. Most
tration processes under a single-win- organisations, law firms, and legal ser- which LegalTech tools are trans-
dow under the Companies Act 2013 vices as a whole, re-adjusted to the new
is a welcome step. The evolving bank- paradigm rather efficiently. forming the traditional methods of
ruptcy/insolvency landscape in India
is an exciting legal development that is Going forward, legal teams would legal practice in India?
enabling debt-ridden companies to re- continue to follow a hybrid model of The Firm is equipped with advanced
structure. The proposal to consolidate work-from-home - and - office, on- technologies, management resources,
data privacy and protection laws and line delivery, virtual and face-to-face updated library systems and other ded-
the new labour law codes are steps in icated support systems to ensure timely
the right direction. However, more is delivery of legal services. From online
research tools to cloud hosting, the
Firm has a robust support system. The
litigation team uses apps to support
case tracking, feedbacks and status.

93 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

“TAKING THE
PULSE OF THE
REAL ESTATE
SECTOR WITH
YUDHIST NARAIN
SINGH”

Ashima Ohri speaks with
Yudhist Narain Singh,
Senior Partner at YNS
& Associates about his
soaring practice and
a 30,000-foot view of
the real estate industry
through a legal lens in the
midst of the pandemic.

Interview by
Ashima Ohri

94 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

Thank you for speaking with BW cial establishments in premium areas estate sector sustain and grow are also

Legal World. YNS & Associates is a where the lease rents were high, and being addressed in a similar manner.

young firm, with real estate com- thelessorswereadamantonrefraining Each player has an important and co-

prising the core practice area of the from re-negotiating leases. Moreover, dependent role in ensuring that the

firm. In the recent times when real the courts have taken a conservative real estate market is sustainable in the

estate has been at the centre of view stating that the force majeure longrun.Itisbeyondanydoubtthatthe

muchclamourduetoCOVID-19,how clause in agreements must be inter- Hon’ble Supreme Court has played an

have things been for you? To name a preted strictly in order to address the active role in cleaning up the existing

few, there have been spikes in dis- needs of all the parties to agreements. mess of unfinished projects, and deal-

putesbetweenhomebuyersandde- All of this has led to a clear stagnation ingwithappealsbroughtbeforeitinan

velopers; landlord-tenant disputes; in the market. That said, I believe the expedient manner. The company law

businessexitsfromprimeretailloca- real estate market in India is very re- tribunalswerealsoquicktoensurethat

tions;andinsolvencyproceedingsof silient and the moment this pandemic nonewinsolvencylitigationswereiniti-

the non-performing real estate as- is over, I am sure it will gain positive ated during this pandemic period and

sets. How has this pandemic affect- traction immediately. The sheer vol- have tried their level best to resolve the

ed the real estate industry in India? ume that businesses demand, and the existing disputes filed with them. The

What does a 30,000-foot view of aspirations of a growing earning class consumer forums and RERA courts

the market and the legal framework (to own their own homes) always helps shall continue to play an ever-increas-

look like right now? this sector bounce back. ingly important role in resolving build-

YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: I think er-buyer, and real estate agent disputes.

this pandemic has had an adverse im- What is your view of the real estate In my view, the common message of

pact on the real estate sector in India, disputes that are sub-judice in vari- the courts is clear, disputes need to be

both for commercial and residential ous courts at the moment? resolved expediently and the markets

real estate. Over the last year, we have YUDHISTNARAINSINGH: Wehave need to be revived by infusing a sense

seen a decline in transactional work definitely seen a change in the way the ofconfidenceandremovingthegeneral

and a clear increase in dispute-related courts are approaching disputes in the skepticismthathadbecomeassociated

with the purchase of

THE COURTS HAVE REALISED THAT immovable property.

THEY NEED TO INCENTIVISE BONAFIDE Other than real es-
tate, another focus

DEVELOPERS WHO HAVE A TRACK RE- of your practice is
regulatory and com-

CORD FOR PROJECT COMPLETION BY AD- pliance advisory. In-
terestingly, you reg-

DRESSING THE MARKET REALITIES. ularly advise various
multinational com-

panies that are fac-

work. The pandemic has not only had real estate sector. I think the Hon’ble ing unique issues in India. What has

an immediate effect on the real estate Supreme Court is spearheading this been your experience in this area of

market but has also made several busi- change.Thereisanattemptatrational- practice?

nesses rethink how the role of real es- isingtheinterestsofvariousstakehold- YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: This

tateplaysapartintheirbusinessmodel. ers in the real estate sector. Earlier the area of our practice is particularly

For example, many of our co-working pre-dominantfocusofthecourtswasto challenging. The very nature of global

and technology-based clients are re- safeguardtheinterestsof homebuyers, businesses is rapidly changing and

thinkingtheofficespacesthattheyhave however, the courts have also realised ever-evolving. It is our objective to

taken on lease across India. They have that they need to incentivise bonafide understand the complex business

realised that work from home is in fact developers who have a successful track models of these companies and help

a sustainable, efficient and cost-effec- record for project completion by ad- themcomplywithregulationsinIndia.

tivemodel,andareactivelydownsizing dressingthemarketrealities.Concerns These companies are keen on estab-

their office spaces. Similarly, we have raised by financial institutions, which lishing themselves in India but face in-

seen the closure of several commer- play a pivotal role in helping the real numerable regulatory hurdles. Some

95 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

companies which have already estab- YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: After There has been a seismic shift from
lished a presence here must suddenly graduating from Symbiosis Law School
deal with new regulations which are in Pune, I started my career with well- how law firms traditionally operated
brought into play. These regulations established law firms in New Delhi.
are often developed by the government I was fortunate to work under some in India pre-pandemic to now. Look-
without taking into account the unique experienced partners on a wide array
business models or the global practices of matters, which provided me with a ing ahead, what’s your ambition and
followed by these companies. It is ironic good overview of the different prac-
that on one hand, we are trying to move tice areas and what they entailed. As vision for the firm?
up the global ease of doing business a young lawyer, I was also fortunate to YUDHISTNARAINSINGH: Iwould
index, and on the other front, we are be stationed with some leading inter- describe my vision for the firm at this
making it harder for these companies national firms at their offices in London stage to be ‘focussed’. I realised early on
to actively do business in India. I would & Milan that helped me garner expe- that the landscape of the legal profes-
say that while the overall responsive- rience while working across different sion is changing and I wanted to build
ness of government departments has jurisdictions. Real estate has always this firm from the bottom up, with a
increased tremendously over the past been of particular interest to me right strong foundation. Work is getting far
few years, their willingness to adapt, from when I was a law student, it was more specialized, and clients are not
or to help businesses comply with the inevitable that as I gathered more ex- hesitant about migrating from much
regulations at the ground level is lack- perience in this profession, I gradually larger firms to cost-effective lawyers
ing. For instance, the government in the made this my area of specialization. I who can handle their work with special
past few months has introduced qual- firmly believe that the real estate sec- attention. For a firm of our size, there
ity control order for toys and footwear tor in India is at a transformative stage is no room for mere optics, we tend to
products being imported into India. and has been steadily experiencing ma- provide clients with a candid and hon-
We have been actively involved in ad- jor regulatory and legislative changes. est opinion on their matter. We tend to
vising companies to help them comply I saw this as a great opportunity and screen the kind and amount of work we
with these orders. While these regula- wanted to be ahead of the curve by set- take on at any given time. This way we
tions appear to protect the interests of ting up a boutique practice that would can focus completely on the needs of our
existing stakeholders who are involved be able to cater to our clients’ specific existing clients, doing complete justice
in the manufacture of these products in needs on all three fronts— transaction- to the tasks that we have been entrusted
India, it is not feasible for established al, advisory, and dispute areas of work. with. That is how I see the firm growing,
multinational companies with retail While sharing this vision with some of we are not in any major rush to scale up.
outlets in India to comply with these my existing clients, I was surprised to
regulations expediently. They source receive their enthusiastic feedback and What can law firms do today to en-
their products from various vendors the fact that they were willing to come
across the globe and it is not possible on board. That is how YNS & Associates sure they survive in an era of disrup-
for each such vendor to comply with was born, and I am happy to share that
Indian norms. Moreover, the process those valuable clients are still with us! tion and competition? The last year
of compliance is quite in-depth and
complex. These kinds of regulations has been challenging for legal pro-
appear to be increasingly unfounded
and detrimental for the Indian econ- fessionals. How has your firm coped?
omy, especially in the long run. In my YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: I think
view, if the government does not evolve every lawyer needs to develop an area
quickly to help businesses grow in In- of specialization after a few years in the
dia, these companies may be limit- profession. While we cannot work in
ing their activities in India very soon.
MARKETS NEED TO BE REVIVED
How would you describe your BY INFUSING A SENSE OF CONFI-
DENCE & REMOVING THE SKEPTI-
journey so far in the profession? CISM THAT HAD BECOME ASSOCI-
ATED WITH THE PURCHASE OF
What led you to establish YNS & IMMOVABLE PROPERTY.

Associates?

96 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

IN CONVERSATION

silos and must have knowledge of all ONE PRACTI- constantly applying themselves, and
practice areas, being an expert in a par- CAL WAY THAT it is safe to say the process of learning
ticular sector ensures your survival and I DEALT WITH is unending. Sooner or later specializa-
growth. The same goes for law firms. RAPID CHANG- tion is a must, and ideally, it should be
Law firms with genuinely skilled ex- ES WAS TO in a subject that you are genuinely inter-
perts who are constantly endeavouring REMOVE ANY ested in. The beauty of this profession is
to be at the top of their game in their BUDGET RE- that it is as challenging as it is rewarding
respective areas will always have work. STRICTIONS ON (in the long run).
Each team member supporting these TECH-RELATED
professionals also needs to show the EXPENDITURE, In our discussion earlier you alluded
same level of dedication to their work. & TO ENSURE
The last year was challenging and has THAT THE EN- to your passion for protection of
clearly brought out the significance of TIRE TEAM
technology. As a relatively young team, HAD A SUFFI- wildlife. Not something one hears
we were quickly able to use technology CIENT LEVEL
to our advantage and adapt to every OF TRAINING often. Could we please know more
challenge that we encountered. One AND SUPPORT
practical way that I dealt with these TO RESOLVE IS- about these pro-bono cases that
rapid changes was to remove any budg- SUES WITHOUT
et restrictions on tech-related expendi- ANY DELAY. you are involved in?
ture, and to ensure that the entire team YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: My
had a sufficient level of training and wife and I are very fond of nature, and
support to resolve issues without any we regularly visit forest reserves. We
delay. We ensured that our entire team have chosen to try and use our skillset
had access to multiple devices and on- to protect the wildlife in India. In the
line resources to ensure that we could previous year, we played a role in pro-
not only appear in courts electronically, tecting the Kali Tiger Reserve (along
but also work with our clients seamless- with Ms. Sreeja Chakrobarty and Mr.
ly no matter where they were located. I Vijay Nishanth) from the construction
can’t emphasize this enough - the use of of a railway project which would have
technology is going to become increas- had a devastating impact, and also in
ingly important in our profession. It is preserving parts of Rajaji National Park
the way of the future, and we need to which were to be used for organising
constantly adapt to fully utilize it. the Kumbh Mela. We are happy to car-
ry out this pro-bono work and hope to
What message would you want to continue to do so in the future.

share with younger lawyers joining What do you do when you are not

the profession. working? Any tips on how to avoid
YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: I think
it is important for every young lawyer burnout in these trying times?
to completely immerse themselves in YUDHIST NARAIN SINGH: I feel
the profession. Take on any and all work that it is important to stay physically
and be completely committed to your fit and incorporate small disciplines
client’s matter. It is important to learn to safeguard your mental wellbeing.
from the ground up and your funda- Self-checks, when one is not being able
mental concepts should be extremely to give themselves completely to the
clear. They will always be useful. Also, task at hand, is a clear sign that rest is
it is important to constantly keep read- required. It is also important to take
ing and staying up to date with the lat- short breaks occasionally; travel pro-
est judgments and laws. Even the best vides a change of scenery, which helps
senior advocates in the country are in resetting. It is also important to keep
a track of your fellow team members
to ensure they are not unduly stressed.
After a typical day at work, I enjoy some
exercise and enjoy switching off with
films and nature documentaries.

97 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021

COVER STORY n INTERVIEW

“HONEST HARD
WORK IS THE ONLY
WAY TO ACHIEVE AND
SUSTAIN SUCCESS”

HEMANT KUMAR, Group General

Counsel, Larsen & Toubro Limited

Interview by Did you set off on this magnificent Then came the role with the State
Ashima Ohri &
Krishnendra Joshi in-house journey by accident or was Bank of India after which you made

In an exclusive with BW this a road purposely taken? waves in some of the biggest con-
Legal World, Hemant HEMANT KUMAR: I come from a
Kumar shares his awe- family of judges, advocates and cor- glomerates in India in diverse indus-
inspiring journey in law porate counsels. In my childhood,
spanning nearly 40 the dining table conversations with tries. What has helped you achieve
years through labyrinths my father were often around issues
and mazes of the ever- involving law. My father always said, and sustain success over four
evolving legal landscape “Life is like a combination lock, only
of India and life with more numbers. If you turn to decades?
outside work. the right numbers in the right se- HEMANT KUMAR: After complet-
quence, the lock will open for you.” ing my 3-4 years journey as an advo-
cate, I decided to become an in-house
My father, my uncle, and other sen- counsel, because almost everyone in
ior members of the family motivated my family, were in service - my father
me to take up law as a profession. was a judge, my uncle was a judge. So,
Therefore, I opted for law. My far- I just appeared in the all India writ-
ther said that instead of hoping for a ten examination of State Bank of In-
lucky break, as if you were a slot ma- dia. I qualified in the 1985 batch and
chine, you must study seriously and joined State Bank of India, Calcutta,
emulate those who have already done as an in-house counsel. Thereafter,
what you want to do and achieved I joined the Steel Authority of India.
the results you want to achieve.
In 1990, after Steel Authority of India,
He also emphasized that you must I joined a couple of private industries,
first become absolutely clear about especially Ispat Industries Ltd, which
what you want if you are serious was headed by Pramod and Vinod
about unlocking the extraordinary Mittal. After Ispat Industries, I joined
power that lies within you. That had Reliance - Anil Dhirubhai Ambani
a big influence on me and ultimately, Group. Thereafter, I joined as group
I was drawn to take up law as a career. general counsel with Ruia-controlled
Essar Group. Finally, I joined in 2016,
Larsen & Toubro Limited, one of my
dream institutions as the group gen-
eral counsel. In my opinion, there are

98 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021 Photographs by Ritesh Sharma



no short cuts to success. Honest hard ogy, digitization etc., in my day-to-day mentors have made great contribu-
work is the only way to achieve and profession. tions in shaping my personality and
sustain success. I always take deci- Who are the mentors you have have helped me to become successful
sions fearlessly and stand up bravely looked up to? How have they helped in my profession.
to all pressures and nods. I am stead- you in shaping your career?
fast in holding my principles and fear- HEMANT KUMAR: My biggest men- L&T’s in-house team was recognised
less in my decisions and opinions. tor was my father. He was also a judge
as the in-house Team of the Year at
Even today, after nearly and taught me the mantras to become
four decades in the pro- a successful legal professional. In addi- the inaugural BW Legal World Sum-
fession, I try to follow a tion, my professors who taught me law
disciplined approach of were also instrumental in my growth. mit. What in your view
keeping myself abreast My mother had always been teaching
with latest developments me the mantra of being a good human has contributed to this
in legal matters concern- being and leading a disciplined life. I
ing both Indian & foreign was lucky to have such mentors like my accomplishment?
laws. I enjoy reading volu- mother, father and my professors. Not HEMANT KUMAR:
minous judgements such everyone has access to such brilliant The biggest contributing
as the Ayodhya, Aadhar minds. Also, my career is greatly influ- factor has been the cohe-
Card and other similar enced by my wife on many fronts. My sive approach I adopt in
landmark cases. It does my in-house legal team.
not matter whether those We are driven by the uni-
judgements are relevant fying vision of adding val-
in my current position ue to the business and the
as general counsel. I also entire team is singularly
make it a point to read focused. I also believe that
foreign judgements and performing at my best re-
apply their principles quires calmness, clarity
in the Indian context and an ability to maintain
through pleadings and a certain amount of objec-
arguments before Tri- tivity about myself and my
bunals and Courts. As work. My ability to man-
my wife Karuna Kumar age the day-to-day stress
and son Utkarsh are of my life is essential to my
also in the legal profes- happiness and success.
sion, they are a great I strongly believe that
strength for me, especial- my colleagues and peers
ly sharing latest amend- in my team are my great-
ments, case laws etc. est strength. If they are
groomed & nurtured
We live in fast-changing times cur- and are aligned with
rently, where technology is progressing the shared vision, they
rapidly and is impacting all aspects of will become great as-
society including business. That makes sets not only for the or-
it imperative for me to constantly up- ganization but also for their families
date my knowledge on such topics. and the country. My constant en-
Again, I am lucky to have my daughter deavour is to channelize their posi-
Nupur Hemant and son-in-law Satish tive energy to actual productivity.
Gupta who are engineers from pre-
mier Indian engineering colleges who How did your team at L&T respond
guide me on the application of technol-
to COVID-19? What are some of the

operational issues that came your

way during the pandemic? What do

in-house legal departments of the

future look like?
HEMANT KUMAR: As the head

100 | BW LEGAL WORLD | November 2021