The WESTERNER©
Published Periodically by Dusty Saddle Publishing Partnership™
SPECIAL HALLOWEEN EDITION FALL 2018
Sponsored IN PART by Coca Cola™, In a Continuing
Effort to keep the Westerner© free for our readers.
Letter from the Editor The Westerner© has been fortunate to
be associated with our terrific friend and
marvelous acting talent, Diane Franklin.
Diane began her career as every young
guy’s heart throb in movies like Better
Off Dead, Bill and Ted’s Excellent
Adventure, and The Last American Virgin.
But her tie to Amityville has brought her
full circle in her acting career.
Her new movie, The Amityville Murders,
will be premiering this fall, and it’s a
The Old Dutch Church Graveyard, Sleepy good one. We all remember her
Hollow, NY empathetic portrayal of the daughter in
Amityville II: The Possession. In the new
movie, she portrays the mother and has
Truth is stranger than fiction. How the opportunity to bring the real horror
many times have you heard that adage of what happened in that countrified
and how many times has it been Long Island community to the screen.
proven? We didn’t set out to find the
She believes she is the first actress to
truth behind some of the most horrific
play both mother and daughter in the
American tales, but somehow it landed
same movie series. Diane is more than
squarely in our lap.
qualified for both roles, growing up in a
We’re here to entertain, and I promise neighboring community to the original
this issue will be extremely entertaining. Long Island family whose tragedy is
However, social responsibility seemed chronicled in both movies. The real life
to be around every corner we turned in experience of this doomed family is
this issue. Sometimes real people, real much more interesting than glitzy
victims, get lost behind the commercial horror stories and, we think, much more
Halloween horror that most people, horrifying.
including myself, find to be so much
Diane Franklin helps us understand the
fun. At what cost do we lose track of
real terror behind the scenes of one of
those who really suffered? The cost of
the outstanding names in the horror
our humanity?
genre. Readers will also enjoy her
updates on current projects and some truth and the facts of the story will thrill
fun stuff available on the internet today. you.
Once again, she shows her depth in her
Their story will prove that bodies of
discussion of what it’s like to be an
those who experience wrongful death
aging actress playing in film today. I
often times refuse to stay buried. It’s a
think everyone will find her
ghost story with a moral, and as the
observations poignant and resounding.
truth unravels, I believe the reader will
Jason Hawes is a name that most become more and more shocked by the
paranormal enthusiasts know well. His details. In the end, those long dead
ground-breaking television show, Ghost found a way to connect to an empathetic
Hunters, help set the standard for a new soul in our century and the tale couldn’t
genre of TV series. But the reader will be more riveting if it were fiction. Don’t
find out that his interest in the subject miss this story.
transcends the first showing.
Dr. Dennis Downey is a historian and
Jason shares his current projects and expert on a period of history when a
talks about the possible future of Ghost certain segment of American society
Hunters. He also lets us in on his scariest was confined in asylums. The story he
moments in investigation as well as his tells goes beyond modern horror to
behind-the-scenes participation in many touch the heart of every reader. I think
real investigations. His character and people will find that the real terror of
dedication to principles come through these infamous facilities rests in the
loud and clear in this revealing attitudes of society, and those attitudes
interview. can often be more horrible than any
made up story.
I stumbled across a story that I think
will send shivers up the most stout Dennis has committed himself to giving
horror fan’s spine. It’s the real story of a voice to those people who suffered so
an excavation in Chester County by a greatly. He’s written a widely
local college professor and his dedicated anticipated non-fiction account of
group. Why have 57 Irish workers’ Pennhurst that will bring the real horror
bodies been interred in an unmarked of that institution to bear on every
grave for nearly one hundred years? reader. This article just touches the
Dr. William Watson set out to find the surface of his vast knowledge of this
unfortunate time and may leave the
reader a little uneasy about their own way to bring the best new material to
views on today’s world. our readers.
Yes! We give you the chance to go ghost We’ve got tons of great content in this
hunting with L’Aura Hoffman, Founder annual Halloween issue. There’s
and Director of the New Jersey Ghost something for everyone, whether horror
Hunter’s Society. Her real life stories is your thing or not. And, as always, we
will keep you awake at night – as end our Halloween issue with a great
though we haven’t scared you enough article by paranormal researcher Gary
already! This is a fun article full of bone Vasey. The author always has great
chilling tales right out of the annals of a insight into this interesting field and
dedicated unbeliever who hunts down leaves most readers with goosebumps.
the truth about evil spirits.
In closing, I asked Dr. William Watson
If that wasn’t enough, we’ve got new the following question: “You’re an
articles featuring country greats Bobby educator, researcher, and a
Bare and Whispering Bill Anderson. conservative, reasonable man. Surely
These artists are individual legends who you know there’s no such thing as
have teamed up for some great concerts ghosts?”
in the past year. These in-depth
He answered immediately. “I don’t.
interviews will answer country music
There is no such thing as ghosts.”
lover’s questions on what inspired these
terrific musicians and where they see “Then, what do you think you really
their music going in the future. Don’t saw out there that night?”
miss it!
Once again, his immediate answer was,
You won’t want to miss the DSP top ten “Three ghosts dancing on a mass grave.”
either! New authors and great new
Happy Halloween!
books and series that will become must-
reads for Western lovers. Find out what
most Western readers know—that
Dusty Saddle Publishing has the cream
of Western authors and goes out of the
IN THIS Spooky ISSUE:
NEWS OF THE BOOK WORLD
Diane Franklin HAS a New Amityville Role
Jason Hawes DISCUSSES Ghost Hunters
The MysTery of Duffy’s CuT
Ghost Hunting in New Jersey with L’AurA Hoffman,
Founder and Director of New Jersey Ghost Hunters
Society
Secrets of the Pennhurst Asylum: Dr. Dennis Downey
Discusses the Horror History of One of the
CounTry’s Most Infamous Institutions
BARE COUNTRY: An Interview with Country Legend
Bobby Bare
The Man Who Made Magic Happen: Storied Record
Promoter Harvey Cooper
Halloween Inspiration with Illustrator Judy
Mastrangelo
Hits and Misses: A Glance back at the World of
Highly Successful Record Producer John Florez
Author GP HuTCHINSON REVEALS HIS MOST SECRET
writing Techniques
The WesTerner™ Top Ten reADs for fALL 2018
Bill Anderson is Still Topping the Charts!
Writing Your First Western by Scott Harris
Meet R.G. Yoho—one of the new outlaws hitmakers
The Amazing Art of Mike Lofland
Review corner: the latest western hits reviewed
The Devil Rides Out: A New Story by Gary Vasey
The Westerner©
Philadelphia, PA, USA
Market Bosworth, Nuneaton, UK
Edited by:
Bruce G. Bennett General Partner
Nicholas Wale General Partner Contact: [email protected]
News of Something New Coming Soon From
Western Hitmaker Fie?
The It’s rumored that four new books will be
arriving to market from Western favorite
John D. Fie, Jr. The author, who has scored
book great success this year with “Cattle Queen of
the Pecos” and several others has been
working hard on a new series. How will
world readers react to this new selection of
Western novels? My guess is…. they’ll love
them!
A Blossoming Partnership?
Word on the street is that Fred Staff will be
writing a new adventure with top Western
wordsmith Russ Towne. The two of them
have been working on a concept together.
“Russ and I are getting on like a house on
fire,” Staff commented. “It’s highly likely that
we should be able to come up with
something new.”
Hanlon, Hanlon, Hanlon…
Robert Hanlon and Megan Allen have
already scored a hit with their
collaboration—but the word is that there
will be a new one—a brand new story that
tells of an outlaw and his desperation to
reach Mexico before the posse can capture
him. “It’s in the early stages of
development,” a source explained. “But it’s a
possibility for release in 2019.”
With John Walt Holmes
The latest news from the Western book Thompson, Paul And His Magic Touch
world delivered directly to you via “Long as readers are reading ‘em,”
Westerner. Thompson explained recently, “I want to
keep writing ‘em.” And read them they do!
An estimated forty-five million pages of How Do Readers Like To Read?
Thompson were read in 2018. “He’s the
biggest,” Outlaws Publishing chairman J.C. In a recent poll conducted by Dusty Saddle
Hulsey explained. “He writes the stories Publishing and Outlaws Publishing, 78% of
readers want to read—and he keeps writing readers polled explained that they prefer
them. You can’t keep talent like that down.” reading on a device over a paperback. “It
makes it much easier for me,” one reader
Between October and December 2018 explained. “I can just download the book,
another eight Paul L. Thompson novels are adjust the font for comfort, and I can even
set to hit the shelves. Two box sets are also read at night with the lights off.”
planned to celebrate his great success and a
collaboration is rumored. Magic Mark Baugher And His Hit Formula
Mark Baugher has had a hot 2018 with
C. Wayne Winkle And The Number One
Philosophy seven books rolling up the bestseller chart.
The “C-Bar” series has been a rip-roaring
“The strategy,” an Outlaws Publishing success, and readers put it down to his
representative explained, “is to make sure “magical storytelling style.”
that we put everything we have into each
new C. Wayne novel. We know readers want “Baugher is my favorite,” a reviewer
them—but it’s our job to educate readers in commented. “He just writes as you’d expect
every way possible.” him to talk—the stories are pure magic.”
The latest Baugher hit, “C-Bar: Volume
And this strategy seems to be paying off.
The latest Winkle hit has already hit the Seven,” is currently in the top thirty and
charts with a bang! “The Unwanted” is climbing like a bullet.
available from book stores everywhere. The Huge Western Wave Heading Towards
Readers
Hanlon And His High Earning “Timber”
Series Head For Hollywood? Over four hundred Westerns are scheduled
for release throughout the rest of 2018. This
Rumors spread quickly, and we’ve heard on
the grapevine that financing is being pulled may be the biggest year for the American
together for a TV movie adaptation of the Western—look out for new titles from C.
first four Hanlon “Timber” novels. This new Wayne Winkle, Scott Harris, Paul L.
extended length motion picture would be Thompson and many other talented lovers
filmed and created for distribution through of the Old West.
Amazon Prime and Netflix. John Walt
Holmes will keep his ear to the ground and
bring you updates as they happen!
Diane Edited by Bruce Bennett of the Westerner™
Magazine
Franklin Bruce: We haven’t spoken for a while and I
know you have a lot going on. What are
your current projects?
on The Diane: Well… the last time we spoke I was
finishing my second book. After the book
Amityville came out, I did a lot of autograph
conventions. I don’t know, when we spoke
Murders last, if I had worked on the film The Final
Interview, but I know that I was starting to
work again with the film Waking Nightmare.
and Waking Nightmare is a film that still hasn’t
come out. But I can’t wait for people to see
Maturing it because my character is so different from
what my audience has seen from me in the
past. I play a suburban housewife in the
as an mold of a Stepford Wife, whose daughter
commits murders while sleepwalking. I’m
an integral part of the plot, which makes it a
Actress very juicy role.
I worked with actor David Naughton from
American Werewolf, Jamison Newlander
from Lost Boys, who plays my husband, and
Shelley Regner, Ashley from Pitch Perfect,
who plays my daughter. We had great
chemistry on set, and I think audiences are
going to have a lot of fun seeing the story
unravel. It has not been released yet.
In the meantime I did a thriller-art film
called The Final Interview, which is written
and directed by Fred Vogel. It takes place
during the 80s and is about a washed-up
newscaster (Grainger Hines) who is given
one last chance to bring back his career,
through my character, his ex-wife and news
director (Diane Franklin). He then
broadcasts live the final interview of the most
notorious serial killer inmate (Damien
Maruscak) before he goes to the electric
chair. The interview becomes an alpha-male when you can see part one?” But since then
war between the men, as my character tries I don’t know how many Amityville films
to guide them to stay on script, and have been made; regardless, Amityville II
becomes the voice of their conscience. There made an impact on director Daniel Farrands
is tremendous tension in the film. The who saw the film and loved me in the part.
movie was directed like a play, which gives
He was so interested in the film that he
it the feel of an art film, but it’s really a
thriller. It’s one of those films that demands decided to write and direct a film entitled
The Amityville Murders. My convention
one to listen well. When it first played in a
manager told me he was doing the film, and
theater in Pittsburgh you could hear a pin
that he was a big fan of mine and that I
drop. I love this film so much! It will
should contact him. “Here’s a phone
premiere at Nightmares Film Festival, in
number. Call this director.” So I called and
Columbus, Ohio, sometime between Oct. 18
and the 21st. I’m really looking forward to introduced myself to him and explained I
hearing about audiences’ reactions. really didn’t know the reason he wanted me
to call. He said, “I’m so glad you called
because I want to offer you the role of
Louise DeFeo.”
After I finished the film, I was given the
opportunity to do another movie, I burst into tears when he said this. I was so
Amityville Murders. As you know, in the honored. I still had to read for the producer
1982 movie Amityville II: The Possession, I and the casting people, because they knew I
played the daughter. That film was based could act when I was young, but didn’t
on the real life story of the DeFeo family. know if I could still do it, or if I could play
The first half of the film focuses on incest, this character. I’ve never been so nervous. I
abuse, and it has a very gritty and real feel. knew Dan wanted me to get the role and I
Then the second half of the film deals with didn’t want to disappoint him. “What if I
the exorcism. So half the movie took place blow it?!” I just stayed focused and
inside and half took place outside the committed. I thought, “I have no control
house. over getting this role. All I have is this
moment to be Louise.” When I finished
Back in the 80s, when I did that film, people both scenes, there was a moment of silence
did not necessarily go to see sequels. People and then the producer, director and casting
had the opinion, “Why go to see part two burst into applause. Daniel teared up and
said “You are Louise. You are Louise.” I’ve fact that this is based on a true story will
never been told I got the role in an audition bring a lot of dialogue. People are going to
before. It was a very emotional experience talk about it.
for me.
Bruce: Were there any challenges—and I
Bruce: So the new movie, The Amityville understand there is quite a bit of time
Murders, is it similar to the 1983 movie or between movies—shifting gears and
how is it different? playing the mother in this movie?
Diane: Daniel Farrands has previously done Diane: I’m from Long Island and I’m
a documentary on the Amityville story so playing a character from the place where I
he knew the facts surrounding the DeFeo grew up. When the incident occurred, I was
family. When he wrote the film, he took twelve years old. I heard about it but didn’t
those same facts and wove it into a story. understand it. Now that I am an adult I
understand that world, and Daniel Farrands
knows that world too. There’s so many
lovely details he added to the film.
When I was younger I played my character
very innocently. I tried not to scare myself
with learning too much background about
it. In Amityville Murders, I actually was
more involved this time because I
researched it. I wanted to connect with the
When I did Amityville II: The Possession, the spirit of this woman and what she was
only thing that disappointed me about the experiencing.
film was that we left the house. I felt that all
Bruce: How would you characterize the
of the drama and tension was in the house.
film?
What’s good about the new movie is that it
stays in the house. The audience witnesses
the true experience of this family.
Rutanya Alda played my mother in
Amityville II: The Possession, and Daniel
wanted her for this film also but sadly it just
didn’t work out. So Lainie Kazan got the
role and Burt Young is back as my father in
this film. Although, it was a memorable Diane: It’s drama. It’s scary, real, and
experience working on Possession, I think dramatic, but not one of those big special
this Amityville Murders is scarier because effects kind of film. People will be grabbed
it’s real. I feel my performance in this movie by the story because it’s a character piece.
is the best I’ve ever given. You go through the emotions that these
people felt and how the house affected their
Horror is so subjective. People like different family. It’s the type of movie that an
aspects of the genre. However, I think the audience will love because of the
environment and the emotions that are What I’d like to do is ask fans who have
identifiable in the story. pictures of themselves in the coat to send
them to [email protected]. I’m
I’ve done so many films, but this one is
collecting the photos and, if someone sends
special. If I have to end my career on this
one to me, it will become part of the book.
film, that would be all right. That’s how
special this film is. Another great thing that’s happening is that
Ed Solomon and Chris Matheson have
Bruce: When is it coming out?
written another Bill and Ted’s. It’s called
Bill and Ted Face the Music and will film in
Diane: It has been chosen to premiere on the
the new year. I spoke to the writers who
opening day of Screamfest Film Festival in
told me that the princesses come back in the
Los Angeles on October 9th. It will be then
new film. I can’t say for sure if I’ll be in it
be available on digital November 13th, the
but there’s a possibility. Keanu and Alex are
44th anniversary of the murders. I’m not
definitely doing it.
sure what plans they have for theater
release. First the Amityville remake and then Bill
and Ted; maybe Better Off Dead is next?
They had a company ready for distribution
but the feedback encouraged them to keep
Bruce: Well, the Amityville thing just goes
the rights themselves. The film has
on and on.
generated so much heat, in the way of
positive reviews, that it might be the movie Diane: Yes, I’d never have guessed that
that kicked off a successful line of feature would happen. There’s so much happening!
films for this company. You’ll have to tell I even just was interviewed for a very
me what you think. timely documentary, but unfortunately I
can’t talk about it. But if people keep up
Bruce: Burt Young, huh?
with me on social media, I’ll update them
on when things are coming out.
Diane: Yes, once again he plays my father.
He plays the grandfather in the film and
You can follow me at DianeFranklin80 on
he’s lovely.
Twitter, ActressDianeFranklin on
Instagram, or Diane Franklin Fan on
Bruce: What else is happening?
Facebook and get up-to-date posts on
Diane: I’m planning a third book and what’s happening with my acting career
Savage Steve Holland has said he’ll do the and my personal life.
foreword for me. What I would like to do is
feature people wearing the coat I wore in
the film. I take the coat to conventions and
people try it on and they enjoy having their
picture taken wearing the coat. I thought we
could take the photos and make a book of
them.
after her dreams, and that she has such
support from the women around her.
Bruce: You’ve got a lot going on right now.
Diane: I love it. I also have a son, Nick
DeLaurentis, who is in college at DePaul
University and is a performance major
playing the upright bass. His dream is to
play in a symphony, but in the meantime he
also plays guitar bass in an indie band
called Swatches. They write their own music
and just got on Spotify!
Bruce: It’s great to be that busy, isn’t it?
I have a comedy show with my daughter.
It’s on YouTube and it’s called Liv and Di in Diane: It is. Some people ask me if I’m
LA. My daughter’s a filmmaker and she and looking forward to retirement and I just
I did a YouTube show. We have a great think that would be so boring. I want to do
relationship and a lot of fun doing the what I can in life until I can’t do it anymore.
episodes on YouTube. It’s hilarious because They’ll be a time when I have to slow down
not every daughter has an 80s babe mom. so I want to create and do as much as
possible now. Like, this weekend I’m
Bruce: Your daughter is also acting? playing a medium in a film. I’ve never
played a character like this before.
Diane: Acting and directing. She did an
episode of the Cool Kids on NBC. She had a Bruce: A feature film?
small part. Vicki Lawrence and Martin Mull
star on the show. My daughter did a guest Diane: Yes, it’s a film called No Respect for
spot that will be showing this year. Her the Living. It’s an action/horror film. Horror
name is Olivia DeLaurentis and although is very big. Many people love it. To me,
she has done some acting, she’s first and that’s where the drama is.
foremost a filmmaker. You can see her
Bruce: Do people associate you with horror
sketches and web-series on her and her
films because of Amityville II?
comedy writing partner Sydney Heller’s
YouTube Channel Barely Legal Comedy. Diane: Honestly, I wonder how people will
remember me, but I think they’ll remember
Right now, Olivia actually has written a
me for a variety of films. Last American
project that is being produced by a woman
Virgin, Better Off Dead, and then Bill and Ted,
who believes very strongly in her. This will
which is the biggest commercial success.
be Olivia’s first feature film. Audiences are
going to flip out when they find out who
else is involved! Olivia will direct and act in
the film as well. I am so proud she is going
Bruce: When I was young, actresses were
“hot” for a certain period of time and when
they got older they got shoved aside for the
new model. Today I think people look
differently on actors and actresses. Age is
less of a thing.
Diane: Women are taking better care of
themselves and living a lot longer. 80s
actresses were perhaps the first generation
to exercise daily and boldly take care of
their bodies. Remember Flashdance? It is no
wonder we see fit women in their 50s... and
now 60s and 70s! I think you’re allowed to
be attractive and older these days. Our
bodies are not taboo anymore. Older
women can be sexy.
The current generation will remember me
as the mother in Amityville as opposed to
Bruce: So you never plan to retire?
the daughter. I’m the only actress to play
both the mother and the daughter in the Diane: No! I think I’ll always do something.
same film series story, and die as both Until I get tired.
characters. No one else has ever done that.
I recently saw a text on social media where
Bruce: That’s weird. someone wrote, “Diane Franklin? Is she still
alive? I thought she was dead.” Then
Diane: Isn’t that weird? I die twice in the
another person responded “No, she’s alive
Amityville movies – but as different
and hot!!”
characters. I hope, when the film comes out,
that I’ll get more offers to do horror stories. The whole conversation was so funny
Or Sci-Fi. I’ve never done Sci-Fi and think because I remember when I was young I
that would be interesting. But we’ll see used to wonder, “Is that actor dead?” That’s
where I end up. I’m just thrilled I can get what happens. You remember someone
work as an older woman. There are roles from when you were younger, and when
out there and they’re juicy. you grow up you wonder if they died. So I
think they’ll be shocked when they see me
Bruce: Yes, Judi Dench and Maggie Smith
in this new film because they’ll see I have
get more roles today than they ever did in
amazing energy.
the past.
Bruce: You have a large following on social
Diane: And Meryl Streep. She can work as
media so, I suppose, those people who
long as she wants to. They’re pioneer
think you’re no longer around are
actresses who are role modeling how to
somewhat uninformed.
keep their craft going.
Diane: Growing up I didn’t do much And I’m thrilled when I hear parents say
publicity. In the eighties, if you wanted to they showed Better Off Dead or Bill and Ted
work, you didn’t do publicity. As I get older to their kids! The bonding and memories
I think it’s better for people to know who I continue. Of course, they’ll have to wait
am because I’ll bring back memories of until their kids are a little older to pass on
when they were young. my Amityville films...
Bruce: I hope that it does well because I’d
love to see you in more films.
Diane: I would love that as well. I have so
much energy, I don’t want to put that kind
of energy on my husband or kids. I would
drive them crazy! What you’re seeing is the
love I have for my family put back into my
own career.
Bruce: We like you in our publication
because we get a great deal of downloads,
which tells me that your audience is reading
our magazine.
Diane: Well, with Amityville Murders film
coming out, it’s perfect timing for the
Halloween edition. I’m thrilled you asked
me to do this interview. Great timing. I
hope everyone likes it. I don’t have a
publicist so I’m grateful you connected with
me.
Bruce: We’re looking forward to a great
Halloween edition and thank you for being
a part of it.
Diane: Thank you so much!
How A Sometimes you meet someone who has
done outrageously well in life and they are
the most down-to-earth person you could
Small encounter. Jason Hawes, who in my opinion
changed the way people view reality TV, is
Group one of those rare individuals who is so
approachable, he makes you feel as though
you’ve been friends forever.
Called When the series Ghost Hunters premiered
on October 6, 2004, there was nothing like it
TAPS being broadcast anywhere. It gave instant
credibility to the Sci-Fi network and became
its biggest success. That didn’t all happen
Changed overnight. Jason Hawes had been interested
in the paranormal since the age of 19 and
was a founder of TAPS, the Atlantic
the Way Paranormal Society, which continues to
investigate the paranormal today.
We See When the show was on the air it was a
can’t-miss watch for me. But the resistance
Ghosts to the series was great with the established
paranormal community because it took on a
scientific, matter-of-fact demeanor that
often debunked the practices and ideas that
were in place. I don’t know if Jason believes
himself to be a pioneer in this genre because
he’s so humble about the whole thing.
That didn’t stop me from getting a great
interview from one of the most recognizable
individuals in paranormal investigation
today. I think the reader will find the
following interview to be surprisingly
rational and thoroughly enjoyable.
by Bruce Bennett with Jason Hawes
Bruce: Jason, I appreciate you taking the speaking of were trademarks on your show.
time to speak with me. Please tell me what You were serious but you always had fun
your current projects are. with it.
Jason: Well, thank you. I’m doing a Jason: I’d been offered shows years before
national syndicated radio show through and I’d turned them down. I’d been
Entercom and Westwood One called working on shows, behind the scenes, like
Beyond Reality Radio. It airs five nights a MTV Fear and The Scariest Place on Earth. It
week on both AM and FM stations. People was fun because I didn’t have to be in front
can check that out at of the camera.
http://beyondrealityradio.com.
I did a New York Times article, with a great
We have fun and talk about different topics author John Leland, who came here and
such as witchcraft, haunting, possession, went out on investigations with us. That
space exploration—anything that falls out was back in 2002 and opened up the craze
of the norm we talk about. for the paranormal again. Offers of shows
began back then because people liked the
Bruce: Do you have guests?
way we did it. We were going in, looking
for the real explanation of what was
happening. We were looking for a scientific
explanation.
We turned down five different show offers
before we were approached by Craig
Piligian and Pilgrim Films. The only reason
we agreed to do the show was that he
didn’t want to change anything. He was the
Jason: Absolutely. Every night we’re live we most down-to-earth guy you could meet.
have one or two guests and cover different He told us that he found what we did
topics. We’ve had FBI and law enforcement, interesting and simply wanted to send
we’ve had clergy, and we actually had cameras to film us as we went on these
people from the church of Satan on. It’s a investigations.
respectful show that’s done professionally
He said, “If you guys don’t do it, someone
and we have fun with it. We keep in
else is going to. How will they represent the
professional but we’re also able to have fun
field?”
and enjoy ourselves.
I think you can see that from the last twelve
Bruce: You pioneered the genre on
years from other shows that have come out.
television and some of what you’re
Most of them have come and gone. We
agreed to the first season, thinking the show thirty similar shows. Other shows began
would never survive because we thought popping up imitating Dog the Bounty Hunter
who wants to watch a police officer and a couple and then you had the Ghost Hunters
of plumbers investigate the paranormal? We imitators.
had no idea it would become such an
Once Ghost Hunters proved it was going to
international hit.
be around for a while, these other networks
The show has aired in one hundred and created their own versions of it. Even Sci-Fi
forty countries. It’s been an amazing tried to copy the show numerous times. It
experience. was an incredible experience. I’m happy we
were able to have the experience and it was
Bruce: You were on the leading edge of
great to see Ghost Hunters help pioneer a
reality TV. Was that planned or did it
whole new genre of television.
develop organically?
There’s the positive aspect of that, but
there’s also a negative aspect. Paranormal
shows have come and gone. Some shows
are so over the top that the whole show is
based on trying to scare the viewers instead
of inform the viewers. People always told
us that Ghost Hunters was a family show.
Families could sit down and watch it
together.
Jason: It developed organically. The format
We were trying to take the fear out of the
of the show was our investigations. The
paranormal. Too many other shows were all
show made it look like we were on location
about the scare factor.
for one night. Really, we were on a location
for numerous days. So the format of the Bruce: Is your original group still together?
show just followed us as we did things,
which was great because we didn’t have to
change anything.
It was a different world back in 2004, when
the show started, because there weren’t
many reality shows. You had The Real World
and things of that nature, but when we
began it was us, Dog the Bounty Hunter,
American Chopper, all at the same time. It
just took off. American Chopper influenced
Jason: TAPS existed long before the show. It was crazy. Now my boys are fourteen,
This group started back in 1990. We had a turning fifteen, they have football and
TAPS home team during the show that everything else. It was nice to say enough
investigated cases that weren’t televised. In was enough with Sci-Fi Channel, which
twenty-five years, people have come and seemed to be going in a direction we didn’t
gone, but the core group is still there. Steve want to go. We were able to go off and
is still with me, Dave Tango is also with me, spend family time.
my daughters are still investigating as well,
Now we’re in talks with a couple of major
and many others that you saw on the show
networks about rebooting the show and
are with us.
changing it, the way I’ve always wanted to,
Bruce: Did you ever have plans to do a but felt I couldn’t do while we were with
TAPS movie? Sci-Fi. There’s way too many paranormal
shows out there. Some networks are
Jason: That’s a great question. There’s been
nothing but paranormal TV networks.
talk and a couple screen plays have been
written. The possibility is there. It’s one of When that begins to die down, we’ll bring
those things that, if you’re going to do it, back Ghost Hunters. There was nothing like
you want it done right. We had the great us when we first came out, and then every
Stephen Susco, the guy who wrote The network had multiple shows like us. It’s
Grudge, come in and write a screen play as nice to see some of that disappearing and
well. then we’ll bring it back.
That’s been in discussion for a while. When Bruce: What was your scariest moment
you’re talking about motion pictures there’s during your investigations?
a lot of back and forth. The cost of them and
everything else. We own the show. When
we folded the show, when we decided we
weren’t going further with the Sci-Fi
channel, we were done.
I started the show four days after my twin
sons were born. I got the call when my wife
was in the hospital. Craig Piligian called
and told me we were going to do ten
episodes for Sci-Fi. I told him my twins
were just born and he said, Jason: A lot of people don’t realize that
“Congratulations, we won’t start filming TAPS does a lot of investigations under
right now. It will be about a week.” confidentiality agreements. We do that for
government officials, law enforcement, and manipulate energy every time you plug in a
the churches where we’re sent in to write hair dryer or vacuum cleaner. Who’s to say
up a preliminary report on demonic that, when we pass on, our energy isn’t
hauntings or possessions. manipulated into something else?
When it comes to possessions, 99.9% have Bruce: So that’s a yes?
nothing to with being possessed. It’s more
Jason: Yes, but over 80% of them can be
under-medicated, over-medicated, self-
disproved. There are different types of
medicated, or super religious individuals.
hauntings that don’t involve ghosts. Would
Some of the scariest things I’ve experienced
you like me to explain it to you very
were the 0.1% where people are speaking a
quickly?
language that hasn’t been spoken in a
thousand years, or moving objects that are Bruce: Absolutely.
far beyond their ability to move.
Jason: When it comes down to human-type
Being in the room, when a true exorcism haunts, you have intelligent – which is like
takes place, can be a terrifying experience. if you and I passed on and tried to
It’s very rare. Also, dealing with some communicate; then there’s residual – which
occult type cases. When we work with law is energy from a traumatic experience
enforcement on occult cases, you might not trapped within an object in a home.
know who is in the cult but they all know
you. It’s trying to protect yourself from It always seems like the same type of
repercussions from assisting law activity. Think of a tape player rewinding
enforcement. itself and playing over and over again.
Something always comes down the stairs at
Bruce: Do you believe in ghosts? the same time or similar to that when the
elements are right.
Jason: I do believe in ghosts? But here’s the
thing: I believe over 80% of all claims of a There’s ways to tell whether it’s intelligent
haunting can be disproved. That last 20% or residual. For instance, if you have a
fall into the paranormal. I’m not saying the house that you just renovated and walled
last 20% are ghosts; there’s scientific proof up a door, and intelligent haunt will come
that a high magnetic field can condense down and see the difference and walk
enough to move small objects. That doesn’t through the new doorway. A residual haunt
mean a ghost moved that object. is going to follow the original path that was
there.
There’s a small group of people who believe
a person can move an object themselves. A lot of times people will say, “The ghost
When it comes down to a haunting, I’m a walked through the wall.”
firm believer. Look at it this way: You
If you look back on the original plans of the companies. We’ve also worked with sound
house, or the building, you might find that recording companies to allow us to be able
wall originally was a doorway. That helps to record something in a certain frequency
you figure out the relative time the and then play our voices on the same
haunting originated. frequency to attempt to communicate.
We’ve also been on the forefront of creating
Then there are the poltergeist haunts –
infrared systems to record things in zero
which are nothing like the TV show. There
light.
are cases where ghosts can work together –
like moths coming to a lantern. Most of the A lot of people ask, “Why do you
time it’s a child and they’re manifesting it investigate in the dark?”
themselves. Most of the time it’s a female
Most claims of paranormal activity occur
child and they’re living in a high limestone
between the hours of 8PM and 4AM. That’s
deposit area. For some reason that
because when people are home, they settle
amplifies poltergeist activity.
down, and they claim to see something
When you have an intelligent haunt, like if when it’s dark. We’re filming at night
you or I passed, they fall into different because they claim to see shadow figures or
types, and some don’t require a ghost. figures that emit their own light. In low
We’ve done investigations where we light, we’re using IR because it makes it
captured audio of someone who seems to be easier to catch one of those things.
living a normal day in their lives, but in
Most claims happen from fall into the
their own time. They’re able to hear us and
winter because most people are spending
we’re able to hear them. So somewhere
more time in their homes. The weather is
there’s an overlay in time. They’re going on
cooler and the air is drier due to heat
with their lives and we’re going on with our
turning on and that takes moisture from
lives and, for whatever reason, the
their floors, their doors, things of that
circumstance is that we’re somehow able to
nature. That creates popping sounds that
hear each other.
sound like people are walking across their
That’s not really even a ghost. It’s just, for floor when nobody is even there.
whatever reason, there’s an overlap that
Bruce: Nobody claims about ghosts outside
allows us to hear each other.
because they’re outside?
Bruce: How much of this technology can
Jason: We do get some claims. We’ve
you credit your organization in developing?
investigated claims of phantom deer on the
Jason: We’ve worked hand-in-hand with highway system that seem to be emitting
Flir on their thermal image equipment their own light at two or three in the
development. We worked with EMF morning. It occurs at an area of the highway
where deer are hit by semis as they’re
crossing the road.
Investigating outside is tough because
there’s so much contamination. You’ve got
audio contamination from all kinds of
sources. You’ve also got insects flying by
the camera and at night they look totally
different than in the day. There are so many
factors which cause contamination that we
try not to investigate outside – it doesn’t
work.
Bruce: Is paranormal activity happening
around us all the time?
Jason: It’s happening all the time, all around
us.
Bruce: What kind of building is the most
receptive to activity and what famous
building have you investigated where Older buildings are more prone to it,
you’ve found real activity? depending on their history. We did an
investigation at Waverly Hills, in Louisville,
Jason: It doesn’t matter if a building is old KY, where 63,000 people died of
or new, if something’s happened on the tuberculosis. So, of course, that place is
ground or something’s decided to stay going to have a greater chance of having
there. A brand new house can be the subject some type of haunting.
of a haunting, for whatever reason.
We investigated Gettysburg. So many
people lost their lives there that it’s not
uncommon for people to see entities
walking through rooms. When we were
there we investigated the old orphanage,
we investigated the Jenny Wade House.
Waverly Hills was one of the best and
Gettysburg was one of the best. Some places
you might not expect a haunting, like Ben
Augustine Light House, or the Emerald
Hotel in Estes Park, CO where there was shove the dead into the basement and send
phenomenal activity we were able to them out at night. The other half was filled
document. with people who had no idea what was
going on. These people came because they
We also investigated Alcatraz. In Alcatraz,
believed the man had a cure for cancer.
we really didn’t have a lot happen. It all
depends on if something has decided to What he was doing was removing people’s
reside there – for whatever reason – or what skull caps and putting mineral oil, crushed
might have happened on the property. walnuts, and all these things on their brains
and then closing them back up. It’s a
horrible story. In places like that we get
great activity. We had thermal activity of
what appeared to be a surgery. We had
bags move on their own. It’s a live location.
Bruce: When you see something moving on
its own, that’s a pretty conclusive sign
there’s paranormal activity, isn’t it?
Jason: You need to look at the factors. We
Bruce: So what did you find in the Jenny investigated a bar where a guy claimed a
Wade House? spirit tended to move glasses down the bar.
It had nothing to do with spirits. It had to
Jason: Honestly, we didn’t get anything.
do with condensation getting on the bottom
of the glass while the bar counter had a
Bruce: I never got the creeps being in there
slight pitch. The cup would slide on its
either, you know?
own, but it had nothing to do with a ghost.
Jason: It’s tragic, what happened there.
When you see a large object move across a
Then there’s the orphanage, where the lady
room, or a chair turns to you like someone
stuck kids down in a hole if they
is there, it makes you wonder.
misbehaved. These children were there
because they’d lost so much and then
Bruce: With all of your knowledge of the
having to deal with further tragedy is
paranormal, do you believe in an afterlife?
heartbreaking.
Jason: I’m a firm believer that there’s
We did the Crescent Hotel, in Eureka
something after this because of the vast
Springs, where a man claimed he had a cure
amount of evidence from the beginning of
for cancer. He had half the building, for
mankind till today. I believe that some
patients who were dying, where he could
greater power ties us all together.
Bruce: Are there parallel universes a la So I decided to find out what was possible
Stephen King books? and not take someone else’s word. That
sort of spurred the whole Atlantic
Jason: I can’t attest to time travel, or things
Paranormal Society. I began to hook up
of that nature. The possibility of a parallel
with like-minded people like Steve, who
universe opens up a lot of questions. If I’m
has been with me for about twenty-five
thinking about two possibilities and make a
years now, Grant and others. We all had
decision on one, what happens to the other?
similar beliefs and decided to go about it in
Does it spawn a whole new possible
our own way.
universe?
In the beginning, we weren’t liked at all.
Where do they start and where do they
People were totally opposed to us. They
stop? If they started at decision points, then
didn’t like us saying commonly agreed
every decision you make might have a
upon ideas weren’t real.
parallel universe.
Bruce: Because you changed the world.
Bruce: What event, in your life, spurred you
towards wanting to investigate the Jason: Exactly. Then over time, people
paranormal? began to accept us. That gave credence to
TAPS. We are the number one paranormal
Jason: I’d always been interested. I’d had
website in the world for visits. At one point
my own experience, which I don’t like to
we were averaging one hundred million
talk about, but it made me begin to seek out
hits per year.
answers on how this was possible. The
internet was in its infancy so I looked for Bruce: People hated you because you did
books, but didn’t find much. There was so things your way yet they ended up
much garbage out there that I knew wasn’t imitating you.
right, that people were trying to sell as the
Jason: Exactly. We didn’t fall into their
truth.
mold. We had our own views and our own
beliefs and our own style of investigation.
When someone invites me into their house
to investigate they really open up their
entire life. If someone tells me that they’re
experiencing the paranormal, I have to find
out if they’re really experiencing
paranormal events or not.
I want to know what kind of medication
you’re on, are you self-medicating, are you
over-medicating? Could there be out there were psychological issues and
psychological factors involved? Could there then, because the person didn’t like our
be alcohol or drug abuse? Are there other findings, they have another production
abuses happening? Is this an over-religious company come in who’ll give them
family? All these factors come into play. everything they want.
I’ll go through your book collection, I’ll go Those companies will claim the person is
through your movie collection, you name it. haunted or possessed when the person
I need to know everything about you. We’ll really needed psychological help.
set up cameras at a location days prior to
Bruce: What you find, with individuals like
our arrival because we want to know what
yourself, is that you’re motivated to help
the house is like when people are there.
people and making money doesn’t come
They’ll know cameras are there but, every
into the equation.
now and then, they’ll forget and we’ll see
how people really act within that house. Jason: It’s never been about money for us.
I’m a plumber and I run a good size crew.
We had a case years ago where a lady told
I’m not looking to exploit others for my
us a ghost stabbed her in the shoulder. We
own benefit. People who do that need to
rushed over because we thought she was in
question their ethics.
real danger. We found out that she came
around a corner, saw someone standing Bruce: I appreciate your time, Jason. I really
there, and jumped back. She hit the enjoyed speaking with you, and I think
refrigerator, where she kept her butcher your viewpoint on the paranormal is down-
block of knives; it fell over and knife came to-earth and resounds with me. I hope my
down and stabbed her in the shoulder. audience will get the same feeling from the
article.
Her view of the way things really happened
differed from what happened in reality. It Jason: Well, thanks, I appreciate your
simply shows that everyone’s perception is interest.
different.
Bruce: It’s fascinating.
Jason: It is. Especially when you get into the
psychology of the people who are involved.
We’ve been asked to investigate and found
The Mystery of Duffy’s Cut
The deaths of 57 Irish immigrant suburban Philadelphia community. The
railroad workers might have gone book that tells the true story of what he
unnoticed by history if it wasn’t for the found will be available on October 22,
coincidence that put a ship’s manifest 2018. It can be previewed on Amazon
into the hands of a curious Immaculata under the title of Murder at Duffy’s Cut:
History Professor by the name of Bill Tragedy and Conspiracy on the
Watson. About twenty years ago, Bill’s Pennsylvania Railroad.
brother shared the antique, which had
Bill and his colleagues have been
been passed down from their
digging through the red tape to obtain
grandfather. He knew the moment he
the opportunity to excavate the site and
saw the list that it was something out of
possibly retrieve the remains of the
the ordinary.
workers who were said to have died of
This started a search for answers that cholera. However, circumstances of
centered in a bucolic, upper class, their death led his team to suspect there
was more to the story. Have a seat next York to open up the west to trade. It
to me at the DSP campfire and wrap was important that the Commonwealth
your blanket around you tightly. The found money to expand the railroads
story that follows will chill you to the and the Philadelphia and Columbia was
bone! one of the first to be built.
Railroad workers were cheap labor, at
the time. We borrowed from British
labor practices where Irish labor had
already been used to build railroads and
canals. We also imported technology
from England so that the first rails were
British.
With William E. Watson, PhD as
interviewed by Bruce Bennett, editor of the
Westerner© magazine
BB: Dr. Watson, I want to think you for
joining me to discuss your interesting
findings at Duffy’s Cut. Can you give
us a little background?
WW: Bruce, we’re taking about a time
when railroads were expanding trade
westward. Originally the Philadelphia
and Columbia line started at the
Belmont Plateau from an inclined plane
to the first railroad out of the city. It Irish labor was at twenty-five cents a
roughly followed the same north-south day. Contractors were paid by the mile.
path as the current line, which Phil Duffy, who this place was named
terminates in Pittsburgh. after, was an Irishman himself. He came
to America in 1798 and was from Ulster.
This was a time when Pennsylvania was
He may have been involved in the 1798
in competition with Maryland and New
United Irishmen Rebellion. When the
Irish lost their bid for independence, the entire crew died. Normally, cholera
many of the participants went into exile. took about 50% of its victims at the time.
Sources such as diaries and newspapers
Duffy was an Irish Catholic who
helped with the account. We suspected
garnered significant contracts with the
that the workers were murdered there.
railroad. But it seems he had no
problem being a purveyor of his We also found out that the spot this
countrymen to industry. He had happened was owned by the Pratt
contracts in the Philadelphia and family, which operated a horse
Columbia, The Reading, and the West company. A horse company had the job
Chester Railroad. of protecting horses against theft.
Horses were like cars are in the current
The historical marker is at King Road
time and valued higher than Irish
and Sugartown Road. The cut was a
railroad workers.
gouging out of the landscape to lay
track as flat as possible. Farther on, Forty-seven men were listed on the log
there’s a fill that acts as a bridge. Our of the John Stamp, out of Derry, and
guys would have died while they were linked up with ten men already staying
making the fill. They were all buried in a house owned by Phil Duffy. The
while doing this work. log helps us with the possible
identification of those men we believe
A traditional story was that they died of
are buried at the site.
cholera. Records list nine hundred
people dead from cholera in Ghost stories abound about the site.
Philadelphia in 1832, but the number is When we began work there, many of
actually higher. The 57 who died were the homeowners came by to tell us
not included and neither were another stories. We’ve recorded many of those
49 railroad workers who died in stories in a book that came out in 2006
Downingtown. There were three called The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut.
groups, including a group of canal
It was three years after that when we
workers in Spring City in Chester
found the first skeletons. The delay was
County that wouldn’t have been
due to getting the proper permission
counted in the official tallies of dead.
from the local and state authorities as
Suspicions were that something other well as the property owner. We knew,
than cholera had killed the 57 because almost immediately, that the first bodies
we found had been murdered. We’ve WW: We had no help from the
actually taken six years to get our ducks authorities. Also we had little money for
in a row to get ready to uncover the next exact science. Ground Penetrating Radar
six bodies we suspect are here. (GPR) surveys had to be done. We
actually found railroad artifacts
associated with the group quickly, but
we were slower to find the camp
without the right science. We were there
for five years before we found the first
skeleton in 2009.
We’ve found artifacts and, in fact, one of
the rooms at the Immaculata Museum is
dedicated to what we’ve found. We’ve
uncovered one of the oldest examples of
Irish nationalism in the United States.
It’s an Erin go Bragh pipe bowl, which
can be dated back to the Irish rebellion.
There were seven of them, all murdered,
and there was even a woman among
them. The ship’s list had the names of
most of the group. It’s a coincidence that
the file ended up in the hands of my
family. My grandfather worked for the
man who assembled the information
who worked for the Pennsylvania
We have a pipe stem from the city of
Railroad from 1909 to 1911.
Derry, which is where the ship that
brought 47 of the workers originated.
BB: What took you so long to unearth
the bodies if you knew they were there?
WW: I saw something, and I never saw
anything like it before or since. My
colleague Tom Connor said to me, “Bill,
look over there and tell me what you
see.” I said, “I have no idea.”
I thought maybe it was lawn art. You
know, that neon kind of art, and I
wondered who would pay for that
because it was ten o’clock at night.
Nobody who was pulling a joke on us
would have the technology to pull it off
because it was like the old Star Trek
He lived on the site of Immaculata. His
where the transporter takes people on
name was Martin Clement and he was
and off the ship. Then they just
assistant supervisor for the
disappeared.
Pennsylvania Railroad. He came upon
evidence of the burials and erected a Two years later I read, in the file, that
monument there that an observer can after those people died someone
still see from the tracks. When he rose observed three ghosts dancing on the
up to become president of the railroad, grave. I think we’re on the verge of new
he made the file off-limits to the public. discoveries because there are fifty more
bodies out there, and we will be starting
My grandfather was head of personnel
up our excavation again very soon. It
for the railroad, and when everything
just seems like too many coincidences to
went up for auction he was able to
just be coincidence.
rescue the file. Then the information
was in my family for years until I We had a GPR done last summer, and it
became aware of it in 2002. revealed anomalies just as we had on
the south side. When a body is put into
This was two years after a colleague and
the ground, it will eventually
I were near the site about the time that
deteriorate, leaving a depression in the
condos went up around the mass grave.
ground above. These uneven layers of
I saw shining gold figures.
soil are called stopping points. Our
BB: You’re telling me you saw ghosts? geologist had a look at the results of our
GPR and decided that those
indentations didn’t belong—they were was born without a right top front
stopping points. molar. This occurrence is very rare. We
believe the body was that of John
Ruddy from Donegal.
When we checked, all the Ruddys from
Donegal relayed that they had no front
top molar. When we went to bury him
in Donegal, in 2013, many of the Ruddys
donated their DNA to the study. Our
hope that a DNA match would
definitively prove the identity of our
boy. It’s been four years and the
samples we took are no longer viable.
But I think this is going to be a very
momentous fall for us. The fact that
there are remains of fifty people left at
the site is infuriating. However, though
I’m a historian, I’ve been lucky to
Geologists who work with us have
involve geologists and archeologists in
found Civil War and even
the project. But the fact that fifty people,
Revolutionary War grave sites, and
who were possibly murdered, are still
these were uniform with their previous
there is the most haunting thing for me.
findings. The bodies we excavated were
sent to the University of Pennsylvania
Why would they have been murdered?
Museum for evaluation. We have a book
Most likely fear of cholera. But fear of
coming out on the 22 of October that
nd
the Irish coming over and taking jobs
discusses our findings and the results of
could have been a contributing factor.
the examination.
The horse company operated in the
same manner as horse companies out
We’re waiting for DNA studies to be
west. In this time, in Pennsylvania,
completed because we believe we can
Malvern was like the wild west in that
find collateral descendants in Ireland.
the horse company was the law.
The first body we found was of an
eighteen-year-old. When our dental
expert examined him, he found the boy
Cromwell Pearce was the local judge. and Catholic churches were burned
He was dependent on the horse during that riot. There were many cross-
company and the horse company was cultural rivalries here that carried over
dependent on him. from the old world.
BB: What exactly is a horse company? BB: I should have listened better in
history class.
WW: In charge of protecting horses
from theft. They could investigate a WW: They never taught this stuff. This
horse theft and wield justice against is the history that got white-washed.
someone who stole a horse. Cromwell
BB: What motivates you to finish this
Pearce was known to be “orange” Irish
project?
and would not have liked the competing
Catholic Irish in the neighborhood. WW: This is more than a hobby to me.
I’m Scottish and Irish in my ancestry
There was an incident in Philadelphia
and I know, if it weren’t for time and
the year before where the Irish had a
circumstances, that could have been me.
clash right out of Belfast. The Orange
My background is in Medieval History,
Irish wanted to have a parade through
and I’ve published in that area, but
Catholic streets and fire off a cannon.
since I’ve pursued Irish history, I simply
Catholics prevented them from
can’t give up because one lonesome
achieving their goal and the whole thing
alley takes me to another.
ended up in the courts.
In 1844, Philadelphia witnessed the
Bible Riots. Philadelphia wasn’t any
kind of Utopia, as some have written, at
the time. People were actually lynched
Whatever you call the supernatural but the fact they were murdered and
experience that I had, people believe then the incident was covered up is
they were calling to me from beyond the what makes me want to advocate for
grave for validation. Whatever Tom them. They had no one to save them at
Connor and I saw, and the file my the time, but now their story can be told.
brother had in his possession, tells me Verified. It’s been a battle every step of
this was meant to be. Those people the way.
never had an advocate—it needs to be
There’s similar stories from New York
us. Who else will it be?
to the canal in New Orleans – where
We’ve applied for state grants, but to there are 8,000 Irishmen buried. About
date have only received one. And that 20,000 estimated Irishmen died building
was with the help of a state senator who canals and railroads in the 1820s and
was instrumental in getting us the 1830s. Mostly all of them are
marker. We needed four thousand anonymous. It’s virtually impossible to
signatures to procure that marker. recover their names.
That’s what makes our project so
significant. We’ve got the ship’s list with
47 names and who they were, how old,
their hometown, so their story is going
to be told. My dream is that Ancestry
will create a family group for these
people. Then others from all over the
world can link up with them once again
and make the valid claim, “We are their
descendants!”
Getting the story out there is important
to me. In 2014, I was thrilled when the BB: What was the name of that ship
state added it to the existing history again?
curriculum. I can’t tell you how many
WW: The John Stamp. It left in April
people were against us. They said things
and arrived on June 23. Everyone
like, “Didn’t they deserve it?”
disembarked, down in Tinicum, and all
There is no reason those people should were in good health at the time. The
have been killed. Times were violent, problem was that cholera was already
here and raging. It would only get BB: The coffins survived?
worse through the months of July and
August.
I’ve written a few articles on the cholera
epidemic. You can find them online
under The Sisters of Charity who came
out to tend to people before they died.
Not the murder victims but the
remaining Irish who were stricken. The
Sisters of Charity, the 1832 Cholera
WW: There’s a lot of decomposition.
Epidemic and Duffy’s Cut is the title of the
You can actually see the decomposition
article.
before you actually get to them. The
The railroad quarantined those who got body, unembalmed, oozes out and one
the disease. They wouldn’t let them out. hundred years later there’s a stain in the
We figured the first seven who escaped soil and rust on the nails around the
were the ones we found. We found coffin. There’s a smell to the soil that I
them in wooden coffins, and some of can’t explain—it’s nothing like I’ve ever
them had more than 100 nails sealing smelled before.
them in. No railroad worker would
BB: Fascinating.
have been curious enough to open the
box and see the bloody mess inside.
WW: You can visit the museum at
They would have been afraid of the Immaculata and see much of what
disease and deterred by the
we’ve accomplished. There are no
extraordinary effort to seal the casket.
bones; they’ve been reinterred properly
except for those still under examination
BB: So the bodies you found were inside
at the Penn Museum. And we have
of coffins?
some teeth that we are using for DNA
WW: Yes, but we don’t expect many of identification.
the rest of them to have coffins. We
believe that many of them did die of
cholera. I think the ones we identified
by GPR, last summer, are in coffins and
that they were also murdered.
BB: I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the WW: Thank you. The opportunity to tell
interview and I’m pleased you took the these people’s story is important and
time. I can’t believe anyone reading this I’m glad you have an interest. All the
won’t go through the same heart- best.
wrenching experience that I did when
you told the story. I want to thank you
for sharing and encourage all readers to
get a copy of the new book. Thanks
again, Bill.
Ghosts of New Bruce: Why did you found the
Jersey organization and what is your current
activity?
L’Aura: My husband and I attended the
International Ghost Hunters Association
conference in Gettysburg, PA nearly
twenty years ago. When I got home I
emailed Dave Oester, who was
president of the International Ghost
Hunters Association, inquiring as to
whether we could open a chapter in
New Jersey. The only restrictions were
that we follow their protocols for
investigation.
We put a little blurb in the paper that
we were having an open house and
people came from far and wide to
attend. Our house was packed with
interested people. We had to rent a
conference room in Westfield, once a
month for twenty dollars, to fit all the
people. The response was good because
L’Aura Hoffman, Director of the New Jersey
many people were searching for this
Ghost Hunters Society
type of group because they had their
own problems and unanswered
questions.
Bruce: Please tell me what you do.
By conducting cemetery hunts for base
L’Aura: I’m the founder and director [of
training I was able to discern which
the New Jersey Ghost Hunters Society].
members had a gift for audio, still shots,
I manage the website and keep our
and video. This allowed me to assemble
membership informed through social
effective teams for our investigations.
media.
Bruce: So if I had weird happenings in
my house, would I just give you a call?
L’Aura: We don’t have a phone number.
The best way to contact us is to send an
email that describes what’s happening.
Usually I call or simply write back with
specific questions that allow us to
characterize the events as paranormal.
Questions like: do you have small
children who suddenly have imaginary If we decide to dispatch a team, before
friends or do you have pets that bark at we can begin, there’s paperwork to do
something which can’t be seen? and we sit down and ask the base
questions while recording everything.
We look for things like: do your pets
We try to establish a baseline. We ask
stay out of a certain room? Have you
questions about the person’s health and
noticed a certain spot being cooler than
habits. Such things as mental illness in
the rest of the house? When people
the family, diabetes, wearing a hearing
answer the questions they often add
aid, or glasses and contact lenses.
that they’ve gone through and
exhausted all the normal channels. Even if the person doesn’t take their
medication on time, or other personal
Residual haunts have a pattern to them.
factors are involved, there still may be a
Sometimes spirits have an emotional
legitimate reason to investigate. That’s
connection to a particular family
why it’s important to begin by setting a
member. We look for evidence of the
baseline. I ask for a chronology of events
hauntings occurring at the same time
that begins with the first time something
daily or nightly. Some hauntings are
unusual was noticed to the moment I
recurring and are similar to an audio or
walk in the door.
video tape. They have no intelligence;
they simply play themselves out and the We begin with a walk-through so that
haunting is over. we can identify where events may have
taken place and also where the optimal
place to set up equipment is. When the
investigation is over, we undertake an
extensive history of the area and
geography so that we can assemble a I’d hold my hand up, to the side of my
final report. Then we determine what face, so I could make it through without
options are acceptable to the person looking into the mirror. The room was
involved. always cold, no matter what time of
year you’d go in.
Some of those might include whether
they stay in or sell their house. They My mother told me the story of how
might want to cleanse the dwelling or Antoine LeBlanc, the farmhand, lured
banish the spirit. Some might choose to the Sayres to the barn and then
coexist. We present them with all the bludgeoned them with a shovel. The
options so they can make an informed killer came into the house and realized
decision. that Phoebe was asleep in the bedroom.
He killed her to keep her quiet and then
Bruce: What is your background?
made off with a sack full of the
L’Aura: I have no formal training in valuables he could find.
parapsychology.
A posse was issued and they captured
Bruce: What got you interested in LeBlanc and brought him back to
investigating ghost stories? Morristown for trial. He was found
guilty and hanged on the green in
L’Aura: My interest began as a child.
Morristown. Afterwards, to defray the
My mother worked in a restaurant that
cost of the posse and trial, his body was
was thought to be haunted. When the
sent to a tanner to be skinned and
restaurant was closed, her boss allowed
tanned. Three wallets were made from
her to bring me to work. She told me
the skin and auctioned off to offset the
stories about strange occurrences
costs. My great-grandmother ended up
involving Phoebe, the servant girl when
with one of the wallets. When she died
it was the Sayre Farm. My mother’s
she bequeathed it to my grandmother.
office was on the second floor and to get
Gram didn’t want it, so she donated it to
to the bathroom, you had to go through
the Morris Museum.
the private dining room, which was
Phoebe’s bedroom.
Waitresses had reported seeing her
reflection in the mirror in her room.
Whenever I had to go through the room
up a little. I realized what the door had
hit was part of a tombstone. My father
put the key in the door and tried to open
it but it was stuck. He’s six foot two and
was putting all his weight into it and
finally it gave way.
We found that the space needed a
thorough cleaning before anything
could be removed from the truck. When
In addition to that, my father’s company
I came home from school, my brother
relocated him from New Jersey to
and I were just sitting around the living
Florida and then brought him back to
room with the TV balanced on stereo
New Jersey again. The transition
speakers. We were doing our
happened so quickly that we had no
homework, with the TV on, when the
place to stay. My father called my
front door that was so difficult for my
grandmother and asked her to find a
father to open nearly came off its hinges.
house that we could rent in the interim
It blew wide open.
while he searched for a permanent
residence. We looked at each other and my brother
asked me, “Is it that windy outside?”
My grandmother called and exclaimed
that, “She’d found one that was just I replied, “I don’t know,” and got up
perfect.” and closed the door.
So we packed up and left our beautiful I returned to my homework but the next
house in Jacksonville and drove back up thing you know, the door careened open
to New Jersey. We pulled up in front of once more. I got up and checked outside
a beautiful split-level house—my because I thought maybe someone was
mother and I got excited because the being funny. I didn’t see anyone and
house was just perfect. Then my father noticed no wind. So I closed the door
made a U-turn and pulled up in front of once more.
an old house. My mother and I were in
When it blew open the third time I got
shock.
up. I don’t know whether it was
When I tried to open the car door it hit intuitive or why I did it, but I said, “Hey
something, so Mom had to back the car
Mabel, how you doing? Welcome experiences while on tour and
home!” discovered we both had an interest in
the paranormal. We founded Ghost
When I shut the door, this time, nothing
Hunters, Incorporated and then, after
happened. Every day the same thing
the conference in 1998, we founded New
would happen but if I recited the
Jersey Ghost Hunters Society.
welcome, the door would stay shut. I
came to realize that we lived with a
playful spirit but later on also
discovered a darker, more malevolent
presence.
One night when I was sleeping I was
awoken by footsteps coming up the
stairs. They sounded heavy, like my
father’s, and because we had this
hundred and forty year old house, the
ceilings were low. I waited to hear my Bruce: You told me you don’t believe in
father bump his head, like he did most ghosts.
times he came up those steps.
L’Aura: I don’t believe in ghosts. I know
But the heavy footsteps coming up the I’ve had these weird experiences but I
stairs stopped outside my door. I looked try to keep a healthy level of skepticism.
at the clock at it was 1AM. I thought to
Bruce: Have you ever investigated a
myself, hey, I didn’t hear him hit his head
situation where someone was harmed?
this time. Then the cat, sleeping at the
foot of the bed, just arched its back and L’Aura: We investigated an elemental in
began to hiss at the closed door. I got up a house in Metuchen. The story actually
and ran through my brother’s room to
started five years prior to when the
get to my parent’s room, dove in bed family reached out to us. They lived in a
and stayed the rest of the night.
split-level and had a son who was
seventeen, almost eighteen. He was
As an adult, my husband and I went on
sharing a bedroom with his brother and
a ghost tour at Spy House in Fort
asked his parents if he could move to
Monmouth, NJ. After the tour, we went
the room off the garage.
for coffee and discussed the ghostly
They had a sister who was the youngest showed them the marks, his mother
of three children. When the sister took pictures of the marks which were
turned ten, she had a slumber party and red, like sunburn.
the mother thought it might be fun to
Years later, their grandson came to stay
give the girls a Ouija board to play with.
with them. He sleepwalked and then
Just after the party things began to
described some called “Batman” who
happen. In the beginning, minor things
told him to kill his father. The activity in
occurred, like things would go missing
the house was becoming so prominent
and then reappear.
that the sister, now older, was afraid to
One night, the eighteen-year-old heard be in her room by herself.
something shuffling across the floor of
She was in the room with her brother,
his room. He woke up in the dark and
fighting over whether to keep the TV
saw nothing so he lay back down to
on, and suddenly something jumps on
sleep. Then he heard the sound again
her brother. She witnessed her brother
and, this time, turned on the light for a
slashing at something invisible that was
good look. Once more he found nothing,
attacking him and began to scream.
turned off the light and went back to
Then he tumbled onto the floor, still
bed.
fighting what looked like the air to her.
The third time he heard the sound it He stood and stumbled back into the
was close, and he sat up and reached for TV.
the light when something jumped on
He continued to fight into the living
him. It was dark and he couldn’t see
room. The parents wake up and come
what had attacked him, but he began
into the room where they see their son
fighting back. The next day he described
thrashing around and they thought he
the incident to his parents, who slept
was having a seizure. When he got up
through the entire thing.
he told them that he “got a few good
He said he was fighting with this thing punches in.”
and finally got the light on and found
He described it as a leather bag filled
no one in the room. Then he realized his
with water. It was difficult to make
side hurt. When he lifted his shirt, he
them understand the density of this
found four fingerprints along his side
thing he was fighting. While he was
about the height of his ribs. When he
fighting, the smell in the room was like
told the story to his parents, and
rotting flesh and when it was over the
smell was gone.
They found out about our organization
and called us. Initially, we just did a
walk-through in the house. But the
following weekend the family left us
alone in the house to do a thorough
investigation. A photographer from the
Courier News accompanied us and
brought along fifteen hundred dollars’
worth of sophisticated camera
equipment.
By the next day, none of his equipment
worked. Much of our own equipment A couple weeks later I was up watching
was non-functional. We never got any a triple play of ghost stories from
evidence of it except for the periodic Ireland when I saw a segment on the
smell of rotting flesh. However, when elemental at Leap Castle. They did a
we investigated we found nothing. All reenactment of how it looked to a
the audio and video was flawed or woman who had a face to face
garbled. I suppose this thing had such encounter. The pictures that the family’s
an energy that it destroyed any kind of boy drew of the spirit in their house
sound or visual equipment. matched the images on the screen.
Then the voice on the screen said it had
“the smell of rotten flesh.” I got up from
my chair and ran upstairs to my
computer and found the information for
the Paranormal Society of New
England, which was Ed and Lorraine
Warren’s association. I fired off an email
about the case and its details.
A few days later Lorraine wrote back
and told me that it never was a human
spirit. It was something amoral that is L’Aura: Yes, they would go to
typically outside. They don’t come in NJGHS.NET.
unless invited or somehow coaxed in.
Bruce: I want to thank you for your time
Also, there must be a water source, as
and the great ghost stories.
water is the conduit for it to get into the
house. That’s when it hit me that the L’Aura: We’re here to help people and
mother had said the thing is associated pleased that you had and interest.
with a particular corner of the house.
I called up the mother and asked, “What
is on the outside of the corner of the
house?”
“We have a faucet on that wall where
we attach the hose.”
Bruce: Fascinating. If someone wants to
contact you, how would they do it?
Twentieth Century Atrocities at Pennhurst
Asylum became the Catalyst for New Ideas in
Treatment of Intellectual Disability
Dr. Dennis Downey interviewed by the
Westerner©
When I became aware of Dr. Dennis buildings. Pennhurst, and other
Downey’s planned book release on the dark institutional sites, became destinations
story of Pennhurst Asylum, scheduled for for urban explorers.
2019, I asked for an interview for our
TW: What is the book’s name?
Halloween issue. What I thought might be a
door squeaking, shadowy image spotting, Dennis: The name of the book is Between
cold room shiver of an article turned into History and Hope: Pennhurst and the
something more poignant and significantly Struggle for Disability Rights. Penn State
more horrible. Press is set to publish in 2019. Jim
Conroy and I wrote it along with a
Dr. Downey is Professor of History,
number of contributors.
Emeritus, at Pennsylvania’s Millersville
University. He has a bachelor’s and master’s TW: What was your purpose in writing
degree from Florida State University and a the book?
doctorate from Marquette. He has a long
Dennis: To tell the story of Pennhurst,
and distinguished teaching career, which has
but also Pennsylvania’s critical role in
been highlighted by many innovations. He’s
the disability rights movement. We look
a writer who enjoys reading and advocacy
at the rise in institutionalization, which
work.
began at the beginning of the twentieth
The following interview shows his passion century, and the deinstitutionalization
for history and humanity. and return of people into communities,
which occurred at the end of the century
TW: Dr. Downey, I want to thank you
and continues today.
for taking the time to interview with us.
We’re very interested in the subject of Pennhurst was crucial in advocacy, legal
your book and hope you’ll share some cases, and was ground zero in the
ideas. disability rights movement.
Dennis: Please call me Dennis. TW: In what way?
TW: Dennis it is then. Dennis: Pennhurst opened in 1908. It
became one of the largest institutions for
Dennis: The whole concept of urban
people with intellectual disabilities – or
exploration is the place to start. Young
what was then called the feeble-minded.
kids would trespass on these properties,
The early twentieth century was the age
get down into the tunnels and into the
of eugenics. Eugenics had a tremendous
influence in America and the family. Under the guise of noble
development of public policy. purpose, they created what became
terrifying places for a significant
People who were judged to be
segment of that society. That’s what we
“inconvenient” were separated from the
focus on in the book.
population so they would die out. They
theory was that if you kept them from This is the true story of Pennhurst. It’s
breeding, their undesirable traits not the Halloween fright night version.
wouldn’t be passed on. That’s how this There was enough horror in what really
whole program started. Pennhurst was happened there. A very deliberate
one of three hundred institutions program which included, in a number
around the country, developed for the of states, coercive sexual sterilization.
purpose. They would sterilize people before they
reached the age of puberty.
It grew through the era of the WWII
when it expanded and took on many That didn’t happen in Pennsylvania
more residents. None of these residents despite the fact that it was proposed as a
had the right to leave once they were law a half dozen times. However, in two
placed there. The atrocities that some of dozen other states, an estimate of fifty
them suffered were horrible. thousand people were sterilized against
their will. In a 1927 Supreme Court
These atrocities included medical
decision, Buck v. Bell, Oliver Wendell
experiments, psychological and sexual
Holmes stated, “Three generations of
abuse, as well as just overcrowding and
imbeciles is enough.”
ignoring people. Infants to adults were
segregated from mainstream society. That ruling is still on the books. It’s
never been repealed or altered. All of
TW: Infants?
this built through WWII. In the
Dennis: Yes, children. immediate post-war period, when
institutionalization was at its height, an
TW: Why?
anti-institutionalization movement
Dennis: The argument, that was began. Today we call it
championed by physicians and medical deinstitutionalization. It included
experts, was that these children would organizations like the Arc, which was
be better off in institutions. They founded following WWII. It included
wouldn’t be a burden on society or their
parents, siblings, and eventually In 1968, a newsman in Philadelphia
residents themselves. named Bill Baldini did a five-part
investigation at Pennhurst. A segment
The story eventually got out. What
appeared one night for a week in July
followed was a slew of Supreme Court
and it shocked people. Bill and I are
and Federal Court decisions that
going to be on the radio tomorrow to
eventually effectively ended the era of
promote a conference we’re doing
institutions. There are still a few in the
Friday, September 28.
country, but by and large all states are
closing or moving to close them. His special series brought public
Pennhurst was the critical legal case that attention to the problem like nothing
established that individuals had the had before. Several years later, Geraldo
right to protection under the law. Rivera snuck into Willowbrook in New
York and did the same thing. He filmed
Thomas Gilhool, an attorney with
it and put it on the news. People finally
PILCOP, challenged the state for the
asked, “How could this happen in
rights of the residents. A person who
America?”
was diagnosed with what was called at
the time mental retardation wasn’t The late sixties and early seventies held
allowed to attend public school. They the catalyst for change in institutions so
challenged that, and several challenges that by the 1980s these institutions
followed which centered around living began to fold.
standards.
TW: How did this subject go from the
Pennhurst was central in the movement serious examination we just discussed to
that changed the way we view a Halloween Fright Night?
treatment today. This change affected
Dennis: Commercialization of atrocity is
more than a half-million people. That’s
what it is. Stories got around that bad
why I say Pennhurst was ground zero
things happened. Pennhurst was for
because it exposed the public to
people with intellectual disability. These
conditions that existed in all institutions
people were brain damaged or affected
in the United States and around the
from birth. Mental illness is different
world.
and occurs later on in life.
I don’t know if you remember the TV
There’s a misunderstanding of what it
special series, Suffer the Little Children?
really is about that some people exploit.
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