LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK

UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
“ETHNIC SOLIDARITY AND FRAGMENTATION”

INFORMANT: MALCOLM KIM CHACE
INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI
DATE: DECEMBER 21, 1998

A = ALI
M = MALCOLM

Tape 98.07

Test 1, 2, 3. Testing 1, 2, 3 and ½.

A: Interview with Malcolm Kim Chace on December 21, 1998.

M: Um, we got into it is my father was in the Textile business in Berkshire (--) He was
running in the late 40’s something called Berkshire Hathaway. (A: Okay) And the
Lehners were in the Textile Waste business. Hans Lehner, the, who is now dead was in
the Textile Waste business, and he dealt with that over a period of years. And Merrimack
Manufacturing came, came up for sale, I can’t tell you quite um, quite how. And they got
together and they bought it. (A: Umhm) And there were two Lehner Brothers. There’s
Peter and Phillip (A: Okay) who were older than I am. And they were actually involved
with the business when their father bought it. (A: Okay) So they, they can give you a lot
better story (A: okay) on how they got into it, and the whys and the whereforth. I sort of
came in at the very end of it all. (A: Yup) And basically what happened, how the
Wanskuck Company got involved, was that they went through a liquidation process at
Merrimack Mills. And what there was left was the land that was sort of left there, and
they couldn’t get rid of it. (A: Yeah) And so what they did is, the Wanskuck Company
was also owned by the same group of people, the Chaces and the Lehners. (A: Okay)
So they, the Wanskuck Company put enough, bought the land for enough money to pay
out the debt owed, that Merrimack owed. (A: Okay) Merrimack owed, uh, part of the
original investment was debt that came in from various parts of the two families. (A:
Umhm) And the debt was usually, in most cases the individuals held the equity and a
number of trusts held the debt. (A: Okay) And they didn’t want the trust the take the
losses. So they had Mossper [sic Mossberg], or they had what was then the Wanskuck
Company buy the land and buildings that were left over for the amount of the debts. So
none of the trust accounts would take the debt. And then the individual people took the

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hit on the equity. (A: I see. I see) And the amount of that Wanskuck paid for it really
didn’t have anything to do with the value of what they were buying.

A: Hm, interesting. [Chuckles]

M: Well you see what the transaction was. They didn’t want the trust for the next
generation to take the loss. So you have, you have a company over here that was owned
in roughly the same proportion as Merrimack was, so, that had money. So they, and they
owned it together, so it was just a play of shuffling money from one pocket to another.
Because when I got involved with the Wanskuck Company, which was 1965, we still
owned some of the land up there. (A: Right, right) And one of the (--) We had a man
and I can’t remember his name. It will come to me in a minute. Sort of a lawyer up in
Lowell who sort of looked after things out there, and got (--)

A: Would that be Frank Barrett?

M: Frank Barrett! Absolutely. Frank Barrett was our agent up there. (A: Yeah) And I
was sort of his liaison down here with the rest of the company. (A: I see) And we even
at the very end still owned half of the street up there nearby, near the Post Office. (A:
Yeah) What’s the, where’s the Post Office?

A: Uh, maybe on Tremont, or Tilden Street.

M: Tilden Street! (A: Tilden, yeah) We owned, we owned half of Tilden Street and we
finally just stopped paying taxes on it. And the city took it back.

A: Really? Yeah. (M: Yeah) So did the original corporations own streets in their
property?

M: Oh yeah! (A: Yeah) I mean there were regular streets going through it. The, the
biggest, one of the biggest problems we had was getting rid of (--) The other thing we
had a real problem with was getting rid of the interest in Locks and Canals. (A: Okay)
Because Locks and Canals I think, there was some perpetual liabilities to, weren’t there?
To furnish power you can (--)

A: Well what do you mean by liabilities?

M: Well Locks and Canals had, had um, had obligations to furnish power to people (A:
right) And it was very hard to get rid of an interest in Locks and Canals because people
didn’t want to undertake that obligation. (A: I see ) Have you looked into the Locks and
Canals portion?

A: The Locks and Canals is a very confusing entity from the beginning, because uh (--)

M: I mean it’s a lawyer’s nightmare.

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A: It is. It is. And I don’t’, I don’t fully understand it. That’s one of the reasons why
I’m here. So if you can [few words unclear].

M: Well I remember, all this I can remember. And we finally got somebody, we gave
the interest in Locks and Canals away to somebody who took it.

A: Would that be the Buckeye Corporation? Does that ring a bell?

M: Yes, the Buckeye Corporation rings a bell.

A: Okay. Yeah. I don’t know enough about this (--)

M: Alls I know, it was Locks and Canals was a jointly owned thing, enterprised by a
number of the mills up there. And it had to do with furnishing power. And where the
problem came, if the water got too low, you had to go out and by power (A: Okay) to
furnish it to whoever you, as you can see, this is, the last time I thought about this was
thirty-three years ago. (A: Chuckling) But I finally gave that away to somebody.

A: So you, the, the Wanskuck didn’t sell those rights, the Locks and Canal’s interest?

M: Well theoretically we sold them, but I think we gave it away.

A: Sold it for a dollar or something.

M: Or just to get out from under the obligation. But the problem was, was the
obligation in dry years to furnish power.

A: Okay. So it would cost say the Wanskuck money to try to get water to feed these
other corporations.

M: No, it wasn’t so much the water, you had to buy electricity. We had the obligation to
furnish electricity.

A: Okay. Okay. So whether it was run from water power, or from a boiler system (--)

M: You still had the obligation.

A: Okay.

M: And uh, getting out from under the obligation, yeah, the Buckeye Corp does sound
familiar to me now.

A: Someone just told me about that yesterday, and so I, I need to do more research on
that, but it’s (--)

M: But Locks and Canals is a very complicated, and it was owned by the various mills.

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A: Yeah. They um, the city, the Locks and Canals actually they built it as a
transportation canal. The Lowell, the river in Lowell goes around these falls and then
takes a big bend. So they cut a canal (M: Across?) through part of the city. Well it was
no city back then. And they used it for transportation to go to Boston, or actually Salem.
And then um, when that, when the trains came in that canal was useless anymore as far as
the technology goes. So these mill owners bought it and converted it into a power canal,
and put feeders off of that. And then they set up the mill site from there. So um, and the,
each one of the corporations owned a percentage of the Locks and Canals.

M: Yeah, but there was the (--) The reason was that nobody wanted it because of the
obligation to furnish the power. And so we, I think we sold it for a dollar. I think you’re
right. That was, just to find somebody willing to take it though was (--)

A: Was a struggle.

M: I mean we had a couple of people that offered to take it if we pay them. (A: Really?)
And I felt very lucky at the time to get out from under by just not having to pay
somebody to take it.

A: Yeah. Interesting. You know, because it’s funny. I mean probably 30 years previous
to have shares in that corporation would be considered a great benefit, but then
afterwards it became (--)

M: Well I do. I do. See I was still in college when, when they bought, when they
bought the uh, um, bought Merrimack. (A: Yeah) And I do know that the great, the
great problem was that the Japanese could ship velveteen to the east coast for, and
undercut the price by 60 or 70%. And I do know that the man that liquidated the mill, he
went up there and he took the entire velveteen inventory and dyed it black. (A: Okay)
And he dumped it on the market.

A: At a cheap price?

M: Well just to unload it. He dumped it on the market and he dumped a two-year supply
of velveteen on the American market. So for a two year period the only little satisfaction
any of them got, the Japanese didn’t sell an inch of black velveteen in the United States.
But that was not a (--)

A: And would (--) You told me over the phone that little slogan.

M: Oh, “the black is black from Merrimack.” Yeah. That was a (--) Well we used to
get, it was sort of fun. Dad would bring home, they’d have these fashion shows. (A:
Yeah) And so Dad would bring home all of these velveteen and you know, for years.
For a number of years I had all the free corduroy pants that I wanted.

A: Whether you wanted them or not.

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M: Or not. And you know the women would get black velveteen dresses, because they
used to have (--) You know, they’d have fashion shows made of Merrimack velveteen.
And uh, so we’d get the, we’d get the stuff from the fashion shows.

A: Well someone else told me that it caused a whole new fashion statement to occur
because of this cheap material that was available. That you saw a lot of dresses coming
out now in this black velvet.

M: Yeah, well we literary we flooded the black market, the black velveteen market for,
for the better part of two years.

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A: Now what years do you think that was?

M: I have to believe that the liquidation took place uh, let’s see. My freshman year, ’53
maybe, ’52, ’53, ’54, somewhere along in there.

A: Okay. Um, the um (--)

M: I remember going up there in my sophomore year in college and the place was
phasing out at the time.

A: Yeah, yeah. What were the condition of the, of the physical mills when you went up
there?

M: Uh, well you know, it was a huge mill complex.

A: It was the biggest in the city.

M: And as it, as business got bad it kind of shrunk down. It was in pretty good shape. It
just for, for no other reason that when they were trying to compete they, they bought the
latest machinery and the latest equipment. (A: Yeah, yeah) And you know, so they had
all this used equipment which was, some of it relatively new. (A: Yeah) And it was
that, and the Lehners ran a mill with new equipment and everything else, some of the
parts of the mill were completely shut down. And I don’t’ think they were maintained
very well. But, but the main, the main mill itself, the main mill with the velveteen, I
remember going in there and they were still running some velveteen. It was, (--)

A: So the families continued to invest in the properties?

M: And then, then, then it was, became a question of the cheap, the cheap velveteen
coming in. (A: The imports) It couldn’t compete, and they couldn’t get uh, they
couldn’t get uh, you know, the New England Congressional Delegation, the Boston and
the Rhode Island and some of the others were very helpful, but they didn’t have enough
clout to sway the Congress or the President to, to give them (--)

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A: Well there must have been a lot of Democrats up here right, and Eisenhower was in
the, in the White House.

M: But uh, and then when they sold it, you know, the machinery went for nickels on the
dollar. (A: Really! Yeah!) Used machinery.

A: Why was that? Because you couldn’t find (--)

M: Well there’s no one, no one wanted to buy it. I think it eventually got sold to a junk
dealer who sold it abroad, (A: yeah) because other velvet, people that made velveteen
had the same problem.

A: Was there a lot of competition for that kind of material in the Northeast?

M: Well it was mostly abroad. There was competition for the corduroy, but the
velveteen came mostly from abroad.

A: Did uh, did the families contact Congressmen and stuff to (--)

M: Oh yeah, we went, Senator Green here in Rhode Island and uh, I think, I think
Leverett Saltonstall was the Senator in Massachusetts. And I can’t remem, but there was
another guy, a Massachusetts Congressman who was very high up in the House
Commerce Committee, and I for the life of me can’t remember his name. They were
very helpful regardless of party. It wasn’t so much a political question as it was a
question of what was good for the state.

A: Yeah, okay. Good.

M: And, and it really, well you know better than I do, but uh, it put a lot of people out of
work in Lowell.

A: Yeah. Yeah it did. Why do you think um (--) I know you weren’t an expert at this
[few words unclear] didn’t confer with these people, but what’s your opinion of why
Eisenhower decided to allow these Japanese and Italian imports to come in?

M: Oh I think, well I think it was just a question of, he was an exponent of the free
trade. You know, he didn’t want to get into a trade war, and that was (--) And I guess
there were, you know, it was done at a very high political level. And I, I really don’t
have an opinion on that, because I don’t know. There must have been something uh, the
idea is if we’d slap an import on their textiles, they might have slapped an import on all
our whatever. (A: yeah) So rather than get in a big fight they uh, New England textile
suffered.

A: Yeah. Interesting. Um, let’s see. Now who were some of the important people of
the Merrimack? Do you recall?

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M: I really, I don’t recall. I know a man, one of the people that the Lehners and my
father put in so that to oversee as far as they’re concerned, not the operating part, but to
oversee the liquidation, was a guy called John Wilson. (A: Okay) And he was an
employee of my father and my uncle’s, but he worked on a lot of the projects for them
and their business dealings with the Lehners.

A: Okay. So not only the Merrimack, but other (--)

M: And he, but he was the Chief Executive Officer of, of the Wanskuck Company when
Wanskuck bought those assets. But he also advised them on their other businesses. So
while he might not have been on the Merrimack (--)

A: I think he was President of the Merrimack.

M: He was probably president, but he didn’t run it. He was the uh, he was the guy that
was responsible for the investment so to speak. He was not, he was not an operating, he
was not an operating uh, man, he was sort of the (--)

A: The overseer?

M: The overseer. He didn’t run “didn’t really run the mill”, but he was responsible for
the investment.

A: Now did your father or the Lehners go up to Lowell often to (--)

M: I think they did. I mean particularly in the stages when they were making the
decision to close it down, and that’s why it would be important for you to talk to Philip
Lehner, because you know, he’s probably ten years older than I am, (A: okay), or fifteen
years older than I am and as such probably participated in some of the board meetings
and the real decision. I was just a college dude at the time. So, he was much more
involved, he and his brother Peter.

A: Good. Good. Well I’m looking forward to talking to them.

M: I’ll tell you what I’ll do, is I’ll give you, I’ll give them a ring and tell them that
you’re going to call. (A: Okay, that would be great) And see if he, I’m sure he’ll give
you some time.

A: Okay, great. Now um, it was decided to shut down the mills because of this
competition. Were there any other reasons to shut down?

M: Not really. It was, you know, you’re in business to make money, and they couldn’t
make it any longer.

A: Yeah. So what were the plans for the property after the shutdown?

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M: Well they were obviously going to sell it. (A: Umhm) And they did sell parts of it I
think. But it took awhile. It took a long time. And it was to their advantage for some
reason, and I can’t tell you what the tax reason was. It was their advantage though to
liquidate the company within a certain specified length of time. (A: Okay) And that’s
the reason the sale to the Wanskuck Company to place of what was left over. So they uh,
they could liquidate in the, in the time frame that they had too.

A: Okay. So there was a tax advantage involved?

M: I believe there was a tax reason or something. And it was uh, and they wanted to
get that company shut down eventually. And they, and most of the buildings I think go
ripped down. (A: Yes!) They, we didn’t want the uh, I remember clearly, didn’t want
the obligation of a bunch of empty mill buildings for people to wonder through, and (--)

A: So that liability? What about tax issues?

M: Well no, the idea was when they went out of business they paid the bills. There was
no bankruptcy involved.

A: Okay. But, I mean, to pay taxes on a building whereas if it was down the
assessments.

M: I think it was, the assessment would go down, but mainly the buildings were ripped
down because of the uh, #1 there was no apparent buyer out there for him.

A: Okay.

M: And thought it was probably easier to sell empty land than it was some old mill
buildings that somebody else might have to rip down.

A: There was um, right adjacent to the Merrimack Properties was an Urban Renewal
Area. Do you think the owners thought that they could utilize that?

M: Hard to say. I didn’t (--)

A: Did you say you knew Frank Barrett?

M: Yeah, I used to deal with Frank. Yeah.

A: And how was he to deal with?

M: Oh, he was (--) Well the beauty of Frank was that Frank was wired in to the politics
in the town of Lowell. (A: Yeah) He knew everyone. He was very much of a political
animal himself. I don’t know if he was ever a, maybe he was even a City Councilman at
one point.

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A: He was the City Manager.

M: Well all right. (A: Yeah) Yeah. And we hired him after that. And he knew
everyone. (A: Yeah) And so if you’ve got some urban property with, with some
problems, Frank was definitely the guy to handle them for us. And he, his last, his last
um, his last deal with us was, big deal was the, was the Post Office.

A: Yeah. How do you think he engineered that?

M: Uh, [chuckles] I’m not sure I’d rather, I’d like to say.

A: Do you want me to turn the tape off?

M: Yes, turn the tape off. [Tape if turned off then on again] That’s how that thing got,
that thing got sold.

A: Yeah. How about other parcel sold off. Do you have any recollections of (--)

M: I really don’t. It’s just been (--)

A: I think one of the pieces went to build big sky scrapers, Merrimack Plaza.

M: Yeah, there was something like that. I just, I can’t remember. I know is the Post
Office was the last major piece (A: okay) that uh, that went up. And it took, it took, it
took some time. There was some (--) The reason that took so long, there was some
rights of way across it, (A: oh really?) or they owned parts of streets. And it was just a
messy piece.

A: How about pollution or anything like that? Was there any problems back in those
days?

M: You’ve got to remember back in the early, early 60’s, I mean, the whole
environmental thing. I mean, I would have thought that piece was probably in terrible
environmental shape. I mean you’ve been putting, they’ve probably been pouring
chemicals into the ground and the river for a hundred years.

A: Yeah. They just built an arena on this, on the old Merrimack site. There used to be a
saw-tooth building, which was I think one of the two last buildings of the original
Merrimack complex, they tore that down, they built an arena. And um, the Post Office is
where I work. It’s right next door. We were watching them dig one day with big shovels
and you know, the scoopers and stuff. (M: Yeah) All of a sudden they had this big
trench, and all of a sudden the oil starts going [makes sound]. And they hit an
underground oil tank. [Both laugh] Well that stopped the work for about a month [rest
of comment unclear].

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M: Well you know, in those days, in the early 60’s you still hadn’t gotten into
environmental studies when you sold land and stuff like that. And it had to be,
particularly with any finishing, any dying with that. I mean you know, you used to be
able to walk across the river there of Lowell.

A: Yeah. [Chuckles]

M: I mean, and you know, you go (--) I remember going up there, you can see this white
foam on the river as it went floating down. (A: Yeah) So it had to be just an
environmental quagmire.

A: Yeah. Um, one other parcel for the um, I think it was sold to the Union National
Bank. Does that ring any bell?

M: Not really.

A: Okay. And um, the President of that bank was Homer Bourgeois. Any dealings with
him?

M: No.

A: No. Okay.

M: No, we did, we did, the banking was all done through First National Bank of Boston.

A: Okay.

M: All of the financing was done through there. And alls we had in local bank was
things like payroll accounts, and petty cash accounts.

A: Now did the Wanskuck use First National for their bank?

M: Uh, we had a relationship with them for a long time. Yeah.

A: And I mean to say now, you’re talking about the Merrimack Mills using the First
National?

M: Well yeah, the Merrimack Mills used the First National. And then Wanskuck also
used (--)

A: Banks down their area?

M: Yeah, it’s the bank that is now Bank Boston, its predecessor. I think it was the First
National Bank of Boston. I mean those names have changed a lot.

A: Yeah, they have. Yeah.

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M: But it’s the predecessor of whatever Bank Boston is today.

A: Um, I just want to go through a couple of personalities, and just tell me the basic
thing. Arnold Chace? Now that would be your uncle?

M: Arnold Chace was my uncle, and he and my father, Malcolm T. Chace, Jr. were the
two individuals from our side of the family. And on the other side was Hans Lehner was
the senior Lehner member. (A: Okay) And he had two sons, Peter and Philip, (A: okay)
who I’m going to put you in touch with.

A: Abram Berkowitz, did he work for your guys?

M: Abe Berkowitz, no, he was the lawyer in Boston. Very much involved in the Textile
business. (A: Uh huh) He was an expert in um, he worked for um, I think it was Roakes
and Gray, but I’m not sure. (A: Okay) And he was an expert in all things textile, and
also particularly good, was well known for, when the textile companies started to
dissolve in the 40’s and 50’s (A: Yeah) he got involved in a lot of that business as a
specialty.

A: I see. Um, did you say there was anybody else involved in the Wanskuck besides the
Lehners and the Chaces?

M: No.

A: Okay. Um, I think that’s most of the big questions. Um, was there anything else
you’d like to add about the Merrimack?

M: No. Really I’m just sorry I can’t be more helpful to you.

A: No, I mean I knew you were of the second generation, but uh (--)

M: Yeah, but I will give the Lehners a call (A: yeah, that will be great) and see if you
can set up an appointment with them.

A: That will be great.

M: Why are you doing this? Is this a school project, or?

A: No, this is um, we have the National Park up in Lowell. (M: Yup) Yeah, and uh,
they put in for a grant to study the Merrimack, which was I think the last mill, last big
mill of the original ten to go out, you know. I think it went out in ’58. And so they want
to try to get the history of that. We have a lot of history done of the 1820’s and stuff, but
we don’t have much current stuff. So we want to [unclear].

M: Oh, and you’re doing, you’re on that, involved in that part of it?

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A: Yeah, they hired me to do the oral, some of the oral histories.
M: Okay. Well good luck. And if it ends up with a written document, could you get us a
copy?
A: Yeah, and if you want a copy of the transcript of this interview I’ll get it for you then.
M: No, I don’t, I don’t care for that. That’s (--)
A: Yeah, I’m not sure. We haven’t decided if we’re going to piece this into a book form,
or what have you.
M: Well I’d just be interested in hearing whatever you had to have heard. This is a little
part of our own family history.
A: Yeah. We uh, we interviewed a number of workers and stuff. And what I’ve been
trying to do is find more of the management tier and stuff. So.
M: Well Phil will be able to help you. That will be good.
A: Well thank you Mr. Chace.

The end

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