BuddhaDwoCred

Chögyam Trungpa Institute 

 
 

Unedited Verbatim Transcript 

 

Public Seminar: 
Buddhadharma Without Credentials 

Talk 5 

 

March 13, 1973 
New York, New York 

 

19730313VCTR1 

 

For Internal Use Only - Not to be Distributed or Reproduced  

 

 

CTI Transcription History: 

Feb 23 2020 to Jun 16 2020 
Transcribing: Leandra Ziegler 
Checking: Julia McKaig 
Final Proof: Anne Seidlitz 
Terminology Review:  
Other Contributors: Lynn Friedman, Warner Dick 

 

Buddhadharma Without Credentials - Talk 5 19730313VCTR1

[19730313VCTR1-PublicSeminar-1973-NYC-BuddhadharmaWith
outCredentials-Talk05] 
 
ARP SLATE: This is the Venerable Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, 
seminar entitled Buddhadharma Without Credentials, held in 
New York City at 224 Centre Street. This is talk number five, 
March 13th, 1973. This is an ARP digital remaster made 
December, 2006. [00 00 22]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Seems what we are going to discuss 
tonight is conclusion, of what we have discussed. And I would 
like to briefly present the general process that we have 
discussed last few days. To begin with, to realize meaning and 
application to buddhadharma without credentials, which 
entails anyone who's creating credentials in their 
development. Then it is regarded as superficial, or dharmas 
*with* credential. By using logic of maintaining your existence 
and still without giving anything, you can enrich yourself, by 
using the spiritual enrichments of all kinds. And charlatanism 
is part of that, trying to develop personal enrichment so that 
we don't have to give anything away or surrender anything at 
all. But still with basic ego, that we could enrich a lot of things 
of on it, impose a lot of things on it, and build further, so that 
you could become the "super king" of the universe; King 
Soopers [laughter]. [00 02 46]  

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In terms of practical level, for American students of 
spirituality, rather than those of students of "religion," 
complete guidance is necessary to detect what is charlatanism 
and what is a true spiritual search, is extremely important, 
*extremely* important. That we don't misuse our energy; we 
don't develop blind faith. We have developed some basic, solid 
understand or awareness, in which sense of spiritual journey 
becomes surrendering of ego, and its credentials to become a 
"better ego or greater person, higher enlightened person," 
because of your ego. That seem to be one of the fundamental 
point. [00 04 03]  
 
To begin with, to examine the buddhadharma *with* 
credentials -- the credentials of religious labels, disciplinary 
practices of all kinds. To realize, and begin to realize the flaws 
of it, and the lies that goes along with it, the self-deception 
that goes along with it, had to be destroyed, utterly destroyed, 
exposed the tremendous "hoax" that goes, on had to be 
exposed completely, utterly. Without doing such thing, if we 
just blindly get into it, we are creating spiritual pollution 
[laughter], much more worse than the factories or the 
motorcars, or the cigarette smokings or whatever. Much 
more-- much worse than that, is the spiritual pollution, that is 
just about to manufactured in this country [laughter]. Have 

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already happened. So, transcendental ecological mentality 
[laughter] is always applicable, necessary. If you are in love 
with the ecology, begin with that, or use that as your strength 
of ecological norm.  
 
Second stage, from that view have general picture of what is 
right, what is wrong, in terms of credentials and in terms of 
charlatanism. And then that's not enough, that's just projected 
view, always. We-- it's much easier to destroy or criticize 
somebody than formulate, instead. So that's not easy matter. 
So formulating process takes place of further criticism, further 
cynical attitude. Is getting into a understanding of ego, ego's 
function, fundamental basic duality, basic schizophrenia, of 
trying to maintain "me" and "my existence". By doing so, that 
we project our ideal situations towards others, so the others 
could confirm our existence. Understanding the structure of 
ego, and the basic bewilderment of not knowing how to label 
ourselves as "this person" or "that person" or "good person" or 
"bad person," simply we manage to find some haphazardly 
situations of *some* kind of credentials, some kind of "handle", 
that we begin to find. And we relate with that, and use that 
handle to build our existence. Distrust or not knowing who we 
are, what we are, what we are doing, what's the nature of our 
existence and so forth, that we tend to project completely 

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outward. And use those situations as means of developing 
basic credential, to prove that "I do exist." [00 07 56]  
 
We still need something more than that. Knowing the negative 
situations, what is "not". But then we confronted what "is," 
what should we do? Of course we know all these things: we 
know about the charlatanism, and we know about credentials, 
we know about ego and it's fucked up situations. And so what? 
Now what more we could do? It's very real for you to criticize 
whole thing, destroy the whole thing, but what we have-- 
what do we have to work on? What you going to tell us? What 
shall we do? Seems from this point of view, we don't really do 
anything, particularly. We simply begin at the beginning, in 
terms of relating with basic psychological state of being; our 
mind, our subconscious gossip, our emotions, we simply relate 
with that, just directly, simply relate with that. Without 
metaphysics, without philosophy. Relate with that. [00 09 28]  
 
Then, we begin to realize that *actually* we have to apply 
*some* kind of feeble credentials; it's necessary. "Token" 
credentials. Without that, we have nothing to begin with; we 
have been told everything is bad, should be disregarded, so we 
have nothing to begin with. So at that point we are state of 
limbo. So now, in order to start something we have to use 
existing material, which is ego hang-ups and credentials, and 

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our sense of deception, of some kind, as a starting point. That 
we say that we are going to meditate. We received instructions 
as to how to sit, and the practice of meditation.  
 
From the perfectionist point of view, that is big joke, it's utterly 
"terrible", utterly deceptive. But we have to use our ignorance, 
our illiteracy, before we become a literate person. Starting 
with illiteracy is the only way to begin our education; is 
obvious that you don't know how to count from one to ten, or 
what is plus ten by ten by ten. Or, how do you pronounce word 
"A-M, I A-M", and so forth. It's kindergarten level still, but it's 
extremely necessary to do that.  
 
So we now become a meditator. It's ironically "cheap", that you 
are studying buddhadharma without credentials, and now you 
found yourself doing something fishy [laughter]. You are doing 
the exactly the same thing you are criticizing. We feel 
uncomfortable about the whole thing. "Supposing if this is 
another way to charlatanism, another egohood. And supposing 
this is same game. Supposing if this teaching trying to make 
great fun of me. Make me stupid looking." You could have 
numerous logics goes along with that; that's fine, that's great. 
That your intelligence been sharpened, 200 times. That's good 
way of beginning, but nevertheless we find that we have to do 
something. Otherwise just hang out, do nothing, make fun of 

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everybody. [Laughter] It's neither practical nor lucrative. 
[00 13 19]  
So we have to start on some point, of-- well [laughing], it's 
slightly self-conscious, embarrassing. but let's do it. [Laughs; 
laughter] Feels a bit funny [laughs], it's-- doesn't feel 
particularly a hundred percent good, and *honest*, in fact. 
And that seem to be the whole point, of gigantic hoax begins 
there, that we don't want to be labeled as "fools" [laughs]. So 
by sitting and practicing, meditating, is acknowledging that we 
are fools [laughter]. Which is extraordinarily powerful and 
necessary measure. Committing ourselves into "fool house", 
which is good, or whatever [laughing; laughter]. Say-- let's say 
reasonable. Let's say. [00 14 36]  
 
So beginners begins as fools. Sit and meditate. Use techniques, 
breathing, sitting a lot, breathing, acknowledging your breath, 
disregarding your thoughts, and so forth. You have a 
framework reference been made, that you begin yourself as a 
fool. And once you begin to realize that you are actually a 
hundred percent fool, by doing such thing, then you begin to 
realize the techniques are purely crutches, that you don't hang 
onto the techniques as something important, mystical 
meaning, that possess in them. Techniques become just a 
medium sedatives of some kind. Which is good.  
 

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And then you have a problem with relating with the day to day 
life situation, our everyday life situation. Dealing with the 
husbands, dealing with the wives, relatives, money, job, your 
car, your rent payment, telephone bills. Numerous, numerous 
problems begin to arise. And realizing that we can't just be 
convinced of fool and just be a zombie. That there are all the 
other problems that comes around our life situation we have 
to deal with, constantly we have to deal with. Becomes 
extremely important. That's why what we be discussing last 
night is relating with the depressions of the repetitiousness of 
our life, nine to five job, stuffy office, boring journey by car or 
train back and forth. No time to relate with your kids or your 
wife. When you come back, you are tired, even to talk to them, 
relate with them. Trying to be polite as much as possible and 
smooth. Only thing is you might have some interest in 
watching a particular movie on the television, and then have a 
good dinner and go to sleep. And next day, have to get up 
early, kiss your friend-- family goodbye, you go to the office, 
with your black box [laughter]. [00 18 06]  
 
Buddhism came to such country, such civilization. In which life 
is not particularly slow, harmonious, relaxed. As far as America 
is concerned there is no philosophy of "manana". It's today, 
next hour, next day, next minute. No wonders so many people 
want to go to Mexico [laughter], or to India. But even then you 

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need money to do this trip. You go out to India on the basis of 
hippie mentality, that's "Let's experience the groovy scenes 
[laughter] that's going on in India. Beautiful, fantastic." Then 
you would like to come back, make some money and go out 
again. But then you involved with *more* projects. "This time 
maybe I should bring my camera [laughter], to take 
photographs and tape recorder, to record these things I have 
experienced before. Maybe the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC 
might be interested in it [laughter]. The LIFE MAGAZINE. 
People in this country must know the other side of world, how 
they live, how beautiful they are. They should experience the 
beauty of it. "I showed my shots to exclusive friends, they 
thought 'far out'." [Laughter] Or else, "I went to India to try to 
experience some kind of peace and tranquility, and I found 
everything's dirty, unorganized [laughter], I couldn't get from 
one place to another, at all. I'm completely freaked, so you 
come back [laughter]. I'll never go back to India!" [Laughter] 
[00 21 25]  
 
All kinds of situations develops; we could spend the whole 
night discussing the details and the beauties and dramas, that 
developed. But still it seems that we are looking for credentials 
of some kind, to make ourselves "known that we have 
something to work on." That we are interested in some kind of 
approach of something. Usually blame on the lifestyle 

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situation. That there is a lot of aggression happens in New 
York City for instance, and a lot of people are unknown to the 
aggression, and the sabotaging situation of chaos that's 
happen in Black Hole of Calcutta. A lot of them are 
conceptualized. That "maybe America failed, spiritually. Maybe 
there's some other possibility. That another country might 
have message at being 'right on'." [00 22 55]  
 
But all these collections of confusions, confusions, confusions, 
*after* confusion, *and* after confusion *and* after 
confusion, *and* going on and on and on, *and* on, and on... is 
purely trying to achieve some sane sanity, some sane 
procession-- precision of some kind, constantly. That that 
seem to be the whole approach is based on, that we don't 
really want to... The very thought of-- the very thought of 
having retreat in New York City, is simply not glamorous. But it 
might be extraordinarily powerful thing to do. Take a retreat in 
the jungle of New York City, is extremely powerful thing to do.  
 
I think that's what we are trying to get at, is to infiltrate the 
bank of energy that's happening. And we can't say that New 
York City is-- energy of New York City is turned into black or 
negative, or the good or positive, but it is neutral energy, that 
it has a freedom, everybody could use it as much as they'd like. 
So, be in New York City, and taking retreat, having intense 

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meditation sitting practice coincide with the daily living 
situations, is extraordinarily powerful. Extraordinary, much 
more meaningful than anywhere else. That's dealing with the 
energy, emotions as well. I think that's one of the point that we 
are talking about, this seminar. [00 25 35]  
 
And there's something else that concern with this discussing 
the buddhadharma without credentials is the need of teacher, 
need of a guru. I would like to make quite clear that this is not 
beating my own drum, that saying that "I need you." But in 
general approach of some kind, that the external person is 
extremely important to relate with your spiritual growth.  
 
The concept of a guru is been misunderstood, widely. The idea 
of the guru possessing highest from of energy, and spiritual 
depth, wisdom, that you are a wretched little person, who do 
not know anything at all, is the wrong concept. If you already 
wretched, your vessel must be fucked as well to receive 
anything in it; full of holes and rusted and so forth, unclean. So 
the Buddhist approach to guru-teacher to situation is what's 
called guru is referred as "kalyanamitra", which means a 
"spiritual friend", almost to the level of love affair; friendship, 
direct relationship, eye-level situation. That you could open 
yourself, be rude, you could afford to lose your temper, but 
your other friend, spiritual friend, remains like a rock, that 

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doesn't complain your frivolity, or your emotionalism and so 
forth. It's a direct relationship. Which is precisely idea of a 
mirror, reflection is, that mirror reflects your face and your 
face bounce back on you, as that mirror has no hesitation as to 
tell you how ugly you are, or how beautiful you are. [00 28 34]  
 
Nevertheless, we could see ourselves doing our own personal 
trips, of getting into a practice and doing it faithfully, following 
some manual of spiritual scripture of some kind, doing the 
whole thing, but nevertheless that we have nothing to relate 
with, there's no "lineal" process, in terms of-- handicrafts 
hadn't be handed down to you. So we have to have someone to 
hand down, and tell you the... how the witchcraft worked; it is 
a manual thing, it's a handicraft situation. How to make bread, 
how to make a soup, how to cook steak. Purely reading 
cookbooks, or the manuals, not enough. Something else is 
needed, so therefore, relating with the person who is not 
involved with the purely credentials but at the same time, 
involved with cutting you down, to the level of grain of sand, 
but still good friend, is necessary, from that point of view. 
[00 30 06]  
 
I think that's more or less what our seminar is really consist of. 
And if you like it would be good to listen to the tapes again. 
Having attending the seminar you have experienced it, and 

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maybe listen again together, or separately, by yourselves, 
whatever. And don't rush, but work slowly. That might be 
good. Now we could have a discussion period. [00 30 54]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: Does the student also sharpen the guru's 
practice, make him constantly examine himself also? [00 31 13]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Always. In other word if you regard 
guru as another student, also working on himself, as well as 
you are his teacher, or her teacher. [00 31 35]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: I hadn't quite thought of it that way. 
[00 31 37]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: That's possible. You see, once you 
begin to relate that the guru as "his own private stash," and he 
is self-contained, and he does not need to bring down to level 
of being a student -- I think there's the lot of relationship goes 
wrong, because you regard a guru as some kind of superman, 
does not need *your* help. If the guru relates with you as 
another form of communication relating with situations, then 
the whole thing becomes much more clear, and organic. That 
system doesn't become too dogmatic, but it becomes organic. 
[00 32 33]  
 

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MICHAEL CHENDER: Yeah, but I couldn't think of helping a 
guru, I mean-- [00 32 37]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Can't you? [00 32 38]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: No, well-- [00 32 39]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, you sound like you-- [00 32 40]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: --not directly. [00 32 43]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Oh, come on. [Laughter] [00 32 49]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: Well, I mean I don't come up to you and 
say, "I'm going to help you," you know, like that. [00 32 55]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well you may not say so, but you do. 
[00 32 59]  
 
SPEAKER2 How? [00 32 59]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm? [00 32 59]  
 
SPEAKER2 How? [00 33 02]  
 

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TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: They present a new dimension of their 
approach. Which the guru might have been so much 
dogmatized, in the philosophy, that may be lacking some 
human approach, of different facets of the problem. I mean 
that's same thing with the psychoanalysis, or any kind of 
relationship situation as well, you know, always. [00 33 36]  
 
SPEAKER3 Last night you mentioned a reading that you 
thought would be helpful to us to read that was called TRUST 
IN THE HEART or BELIEF IN THE MIND. Is could-- is there 
any more specific information about that? Because I tried to 
find it today and it was impossible [UNCLEAR: nobody would?] 
[INAUDIBLE WORDS]. Is there a translation [INAUDIBLE 
WORDS]? [00 33 57]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: You are so efficient. [Laughter] I think 
TRUST IN THE HEART is comes in a book, compiled of a lot of 
Buddhist writings, called BUDDHIST BIBLE. And also yeah, 
BUDDHIST TEXTS THROUGHOUT THE AGES, BUDDHIST 
TEXTS THROUGHOUT AGES. [00 34 20]  
 
SPEAKER4 Trungpa, in meditation, when the mind is aware of 
the mind, where then does the ego go? The mind is itself 
aware of itself-- [00 34 30]  
 

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TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, ego has no room. [00 34 32]  
 
SPEAKER4 --[INAUDIBLE WORDS] if it is aware of itself. 
[00 34 33]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: There's no ego. Ego, this case, means 
scheming, basic policies-- [00 34 40]  
 
SPEAKER4 But there is a body, there's the feelings, there's the 
emotions, there's the mind running around. [00 34 46]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: It's very simple. [00 34 47]  
 
SPEAKER4 The ego is not in any dominion. [00 34 48]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: No. That's why Buddhist-- that's why 
Buddha says it's "egoless"-- [00 34 52]  
 
SPEAKER4 I still I seem to have ended up with five sets of 
credentials. [00 34 53]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm? [00 34 54]  
 

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SPEAKER4 I seem to have ended up with five sets of 
credentials -- one for the body, one for the feelings, one for 
the emotions. [00 34 59]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Doesn't matter. [00 35 02]  
 
SPEAKER5 What do you mean it doesn't matter? I mean like I 
feel when I meditate-- [00 35 04]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I don't-- I mean don't try to be too 
perfectionist. Go along with it. [Whispering] Somebody is 
sleeping there?] [00 35 18]  
 
SPEAKER6 Rinpoche, what is the definition of "ego" as used in 
your sense as opposed to a psychological sense? And also, you 
reference to saying the ego is a lot of indoctrination or 
externalized condition. And it's-- how is it used? [00 35 39]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I mean, it seems that the Western 
approach of ego -- are you saying that? Is that you been told 
you had to develop better ego, become self-respectable. So 
you can take care of your business, and take care of your 
welfare. And then there's another ego, which is, from Buddhist 
point of view, is completely, fundamentally neurotic, 
completely confused, utterly confused. So, I don't think two 

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school of thoughts clashes. That one which says that you have 
to be efficient in your living situation, is also a Buddhist way as 
well, that your living situation does not have to become 
*centralized*, to protect your territory as such. But you have 
to become down-to-earth and functional, and you have to 
learn higher logic, how things work. And then, working with 
that, you don't trying to grasp people or destroy people, 
because you want to do; that's neurosis. But try to balance 
both situations of normal living situation, as well as your 
general sanity together. [00 37 14]  
 
SPEAKER7 Are there many teachers in one's life or one? 
[00 37 17]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Many teachers what? [00 37 18]  
 
SPEAKER7 Are there many-- would there be many teachers or 
gurus in one's life or one? [00 37 25]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I would say both. Maybe one for one's 
life, maybe many. [00 37 34]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: I've noticed in the discussion groups 
that the people in the discussion groups know an awful lot. 
[00 37 40]  

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TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: They know? [00 37 45]  
 
MICHAEL CHENDER: They know a lot. I mean, I've talked to 
people and they-- you know they have different ways of 
looking at things and it really opens me up. It seems I learn as 
much from the other students as I do from you, even. 
[00 38 00]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: That's why we are here. It's not my 
show, but it's a seminar, which means that everybody works 
together. It's "symposium". [00 38 14]  
 
SPEAKER8 What's the difference between the projector and 
the perceiver? [00 38 19]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Projector is manufacturing its security, 
so that projector has projections to confirm, and what's the 
other one? [00 38 37]  
 
SPEAKER8 Perceiver, not as object but as a-- I'm thinking of 
just the act of visual [INAUDIBLE] -- [00 38 47]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah, that's just what need to be 
confirmed. You have a perception, and perception is 

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confirmed by projector working hard on it, and it's finally you 
are confirmed. So the perceiver is more like the audience, 
projector is the camera man. [00 39 14]  
 
SPEAKER9 How should we regard the cycle of excitement and 
affirmation that seems to arise when you have feelings of 
contact with the teachings? Is that a problem in relation to 
what you told us about boredom? [00 39 36]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I don't think so. If you relate 
completely with the teaching, or the scriptures, or the talks, 
that they say same thing over, over again and again. Which is 
very boring. [laughter] [00 39 59]  
 
SPEAKER9 How does one become separate from the prospect 
of becoming excited by the realization of boredom? It seems to 
be vicious cycle. [00 40 10]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: You don't. You don't try and to 
separate, you don't try to set up any security, you are 
defenseless. [00 40 19]  
 
SPEAKER9 I have a problem with being excited by boredom. I 
mean if I were to become bored I-- that would excite me. I 
suppose I'll lose that feeling with time. [00 40 30]  

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TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Sounds good. [laughter] Go ahead. 
[00 40 36]  
 
SPEAKER10 Well, I know there's no hierarchy, no path or 
anything, but have you ever-- [00 40 42]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: There's no what? [00 40 43]  
 
SPEAKER10 Have you ever-- in Tibet did you know people 
who were more developed than you? I mean, have you met 
really, really highly-- [00 40 52]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: [Whispering] In Tibet what? [00 40 49]  
 
AUDIENCE: [Whispering] Have you met people more 
developed than yourself. [00 40 53]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: [Whispers] Than me? [Laughter] Sure! I 
was young student then. But I would love to go back to Tibet 
and compare myself with them now. [Laughter] [00 41 26]  
 
SPEAKER11 Why? [00 41 27]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm? Did you say why? [00 41 31]  

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SPEAKER11 Why would you like-- who would like to do that 
and why? [00 41 33]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Just to make sure [laughter]. [00 41 39]  
 
SPEAKER11 Who has that [INAUDIBLE]-- [00 41 42]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm? [00 41 43]  
 
SPEAKER11 Who are you being when you say that? [00 41 44]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, I mean there's a lot of things, 
really humorous things, I have discovered in my journey. My 
training become extremely powerful when they got in the 
West, I become more Buddhism-- Buddhistic, or more 
Tibetan, and I would like to crack few jokes [laughter] with 
Milarepa and Marpa. [Laughter] [00 42 41]  
 
Well friends, I think our seminar is coming to the end, as 
things usually do come in the end; the nature of 
impermanence. [Laughter] But no shedding tears, as 
McGovern would say [laughter; laughs]. It's no failure [laughs], 
or success for that matter. [00 43 12]  
 

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Buddhadharma Without Credentials - Talk 5 19730313VCTR1

I hope that you be able to continue with some kind of practice 
[laughter]. But I think everybody has got message, as to how to 
relate with buddhadharma *with* credentials, or without 
credentials. So you have to develop your own basic 
intelligence to how to handle that situation. But any kind of 
trips that presented within the realm of ego, is lethal. 
Particularly, Americans are much more immune to that, seems 
to be, they are-- not even immune to it they are... [00 44 01]  
 
AUDIENCE: Susceptible. [00 44 05]  
 
TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Suscepted [sic] to it, yeah, rather than 
immune to it. So, as long as you relate with the New York 
speed, you are safe. If you get into spiritual trips, you are not 
safe. That's your guideline. Existing energy that's happening 
here is real, and *also* spiritual. So, think about that. And I 
would like to close this seminar, much to my regret, and that 
we are closing down such [UNCLEAR: happy? heavy?] scene. 
We will meet again, probably I'll be back again next year. And 
due to my heavy schedule I can't come back this year, 
seemingly. So we could get together again, tomorrow, of next 
year [laughter]. Thank you. [00 45 06]  
 
AUDIENCE: Thank you.  

 

v.2020.10.08ref Unedited Verbatim Transcript Page 22 
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