ANIMALS MAGAZINE ISSUE 1

Photo by: Douglas M Parker

So how do you decide to paint something
so pretty?

You come out of the ’90s when Nirvana was
around - they knew that smashing a guitar
was a cliché, but at the same time they did
it and it meant something different, and
it kind of meant the same thing. So it was
possible to do something even with the
deconstructed knowledge of what it meant.

While you’re in the middle of working are
you aware of that? The history of the con-
cept that you’re working with and the hope
that you’ll push past it, is that conversation
going on in your head ?

Yeah. There are a lot of conversations that
are going on in my head. When they are of
a historical nature it’s usually like, “Who do
you think you are, doing this? What makes
you think that this is OK?” It’s a very critical
thing and then hopefully sometimes that
disappears and I can do the work. But that
would mean the question still is, “Who
the fuck do you think you are that you can
do this and do something different with it
knowing what you know?” When I put down
100 those colors I can’t believe I’m doing that.

02

Being a successful artist is its own unique
place on the planet where you’ve bet
on yourself and challenged traditional
ideas and done it all on your own. So
when you succeed at that, society
accepts and excuses, maybe encourages,
behavior that almost no other profession
would be allowed to engage in without
there being some kind of backlash.

Yeah. Musicians would be one of the excep-
tions. Politicians, not one of the exceptions.

If Jeff Koons stood up at a
museum cafe, and pissed on the
table, people would applaud.

Maybe. Pollack peed in Peggy Guggen-

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

heim’s fireplace at a party on the Upper
Eastside, and that is one of the great art
stories. Not giving a fuck, and not giving a
fuck publicly, I always thought that was a
good story.

How have you not given a fuck?

Well I don’t know. “Not giving a fuck”
publicly is giving a fuck, right? I have given
a fuck and that’s the thing. I want to not
so I pretend I don’t. I pretend like I’m good
artist, and I pretend that I’m fearless. I put
all those things together, and imagine what
that person would do and then once I figure
out what that person would do - that’s what
I do. That’s what I try to do, especially with
the art.

That feels potentially like
some kind of trap.

Why?

Because that could lack authenticity.

Oh, but you end up becoming that thing. 101
I mean it’s moving and faking. God, it’s so
weird to talk about this shit. I’m interested
in going into places where the outcomes
are not exactly known. Wait is that true?
There is how I am and how I was.

OK, Let’s start with how you were.

I made a painting. I did a lot of it on acid
with my eyes closed by the pool. That work
did hang in the Reagan White House, and
it represented California. There were 50
works from 50 states, and I was a junior in
high school. I represented California. That
was the “Just Say No” campaign. I like that
story; that is actually true.

Has that method of working in
altered states carried through
into your recent work at all?

Photo by: Douglas M Parker No. I’ve made very little work under the in-
fluence. I think I got a tremendous amount
of relief knowing that at any time I could
take off into my head. I think that doing
psychedelics in my teens and 20s certainly
affected my brain chemistry, and the way
that I saw things. But I was done with that
early. So no - those kind of extra-curricular
activities were extra-curricular. I didn’t use



Photos by: Douglas M Parker



them. I even kept the alcohol at bay for a Mike Kelly said that he wanted become an show never showed what an artist could do.
long long time, because it interfered with artist because he wanted to be a failure. Do Brent and I opened up a space with the idea
the work. To me, it seemed irresponsible - you remember why you wanted to become that we would only do solo shows working
I didn’t want to have a hangover or anything an artist? with artists who didn’t have other repre-
else to get in the way of what I wanted sentation, and give them a beautiful space
to do. Well. I wanted to be a big success. I wanted and an opportunity to really say something.
a big house and I wanted to paint all the That’s what we did, and we said that if we
I really wanted to have a venue in which time. To me that was freedom. When I couldn’t find enough good artists, we would
to express myself, right? I had a place in looked at the pictures of Picasso in the show our own work 24/7 - that was our
which I could make the work, and there Chateau California with work all the way joke-and we never did. Opening up that
I have always operated with complete around, and kids dancing - to me that space and working with artists-who are
freedom, but I also needed a place where seemed like total freedom. That’s what I really hard workers-was really rewarding,
I could show the work. And getting those wanted. I wanted fame, and a big house. that took care of a lot of my conceptual
venues was really important and I saw needs in terms of being a part of something
drugs and alcohol keeping me from getting Why painting as a medium? larger in the way that the more social per-
those venues although drugs and alcohol formative stuff did. Then I started looking
were very effective for social situations. Well I always drew; I always did designs. for why I got interested in art in the first
When I got to high school, I did colored place, and I was always interested in lines
It wasn’t until much later that I started pencils and colored pens. I had those and colors. Then I started going back in.
to get more of these things that I really geometric stencils. I always looked at those
knew one hundred percent would make as designs. I was good at it and I could lose I always believed art could be whatever 105
me happy - not make me happy, but allow myself in those schematics and it wasn’t you wanted it to be, but doing that perfor-
me to operate with impunity outside of the until I got into high school and I had a mance work reached it on a different level,
studio. This is what I always wanted - and teacher who introduced me to Kandinsky a deeper level, because it was anything. I
that didn’t happen. and ‘Concerning The Spiritual In Art’ and think that going back into why I originally
that showed me that these designs could got interested in art was a conceptual deci-
When you say operate with impunity be considered art. sion. I think it was a political position and a
you mean permission? conceptual decision. And so then I started
I was always drawn to the two-dimension- painting again.
I just didn’t want anyone telling me what al and two-dimensional is pretty much
to do outside of the studio either, you painting and then at some point that sort of What kind of painting problems
know? I wanted to do whatever I wanted to branched off into kind of conceptual perfor- are you wrestling with now?
do whenever, I wanted to do it however I mance work that existed in with other peo-
wanted to do it, and I didn’t want anybody’s ple and performance out in the real world Well, I’ve been doing faces strictly since
ideas or opinions getting in the way of that. and then was expanded on and shown in 2008, and within the last few years, I’ve
I had that already in the studio and I wanted an art setting with photographs which is been painting on these sculptures. The
it everywhere. And that is what I thought two-dimensional. And then the signs that I faces are really only done with palette
that having those venues would mean exchanged were also two-dimensional. knives. The sculptures are painted almost
for me. exclusively with my hands, and so now what
I saw that show, it was fucking I’m struggling with is, is it possible? Well
And it hasn’t? hilarious. So your conceptual of course it’s possible... so the struggle
work was short lived and then you is how do I get this new way of painting to
No. I thought just having one gallery where I decided to go right into painting? translate from a sculpture to a painting. So
could show my work where I could express that’s the biggest struggle.
my ideas that would be enough. If I could just I moved down to LA, I opened up a space
have that then I would have absolute freedom with my friend Brent Peterson who was at I’ve been working on translating that off
always. It’s a very unrealistic way of looking UCLA at the time - back in ‘97. At that time, and on for a year, and I haven’t made a
at life but I really thought that for me that there were not enough good young galler- good painting yet doing it. I’m trying to
was possible. I think I have a more realistic ies for as many good artists as there were do finger painting on a stretcher and it’s
version of it now but I think that having that, in LA-not even close. Most of the galleries turning out terrible, but it really works well
whatever it is... grandiosity... allowed me to only gave solo shows to very specific artists on sculptures… so it may turn out that I’ve
struggle for years and years. And also a belief who went to three of the main schools figured out a really beautiful way of paint-
that that was possible to get to this place that here in LA and came out with the highest ing these sculptures that doesn’t translate
was perfect propelled me. As well as having recommendations from the most famous to paintings. I really want it to translate to
things that I thought were worth looking at. professors. That was it. Otherwise, maybe paintings. So right now - that’s my biggest
you could get a group show and a group struggle. And it seems like in my head that



Photos by: Douglas M Parker



Photos by: Douglas M Parker



Photos by: Ruben Diaz

it would fucking work, and that’s the big traditional way of painting that is traditionally But the best thing is just when I’m in the
difference between having an idea and doing considered expressive, and I wanted to have zone. I rode the chairlift with a professional
it. I’ve found that the idea can work in my that as a wind down tool after a long day of mountain biker the other day, and he said
head, I can dream about it and know that it painting really regimented geometrical ab- that between cyclists there’s a saying, “I was
works, but then I do it and it’s a completely straction. I wanted to let go of that tightness. going up the mountain without a chain,” and
different ballgame. And so I don’t know what So that’s how they started, and then when I that’s again just being in the zone. You’re
other experimentation needs to happen, or decided that I would continue it further into just there witnessing it, and in that case the
if I throw in the towel. I don’t think I’ll throw paintings that would be presented as my audience has disappeared; everything has
in the towel for at least another year, but it’s artwork I started getting involved in, like, disappeared—that is the best. That’s the
really frustrating to want something and not Picasso eyes, which is the first thing a young very best. I mean that has to be the thing
have the skill to get it. Or the know-how. artist does to say, “I’m experimental, I’m part that every artist, every athlete, every writer
of the Avant Garde!!” It’s a real clichéd way of goes for; that feeling is insane. Having said
What are those paintings about? showing that you think different, you know? that, I love having the finished piece. I don’t
And so within that language that is tackled by get off on the struggle. I don’t mind talking
Well I think that’s what they’re about: every 19-year-old painter, I wanted to take about the struggle, and conceptually I enjoy
they’re about how to make gestural abstrac- that language and try to make something the fact that there is the struggle, but I don’t
tion using my hands. How do you do that? I good with it. So that was the goal: I wanted enjoy being in the struggle. I don’t like it. I
don’t know if that’s what they’re about but to make something really good within that don’t like pain. I don’t like struggle. I don’t
that’s what I am trying to do. Maybe I find language. like that shit. I like it when things just flow.
out what they’re about later. Maybe if I can
do the thing well, then maybe I find out what Painting is less popular than it was say 50 Why keep challenging yourself then?
they’re about. I’d like them to be a study of years ago. In New York, for instance, you
color and gestural abstraction, but beyond had groups of guys who came up together, So I don’t get bored - is that it? So I don’t get
that I don’t know what they mean. I know did you come up with guys in that way? bored? Well, I really want the things. I see
I want to get a vibe, ultimately it should the potential for these things. I really want
express a certain vibe, but I don’t know what When I was here in LA, there was not a lot these paintings that don’t exist. I really want
that is. of painting going on. It was more conceptual them and again it’s like... I find it devastating
stuff; there was some funky sculptural stuff during the failure, but I have a lot of failures
112 Conceptually, I like having something that I’m coming out around that time, but LA has in the other room that I haven’t touched in a
failing with. I like that and that’s really excit- never really been a painting town or a town few days. The pain of that doesn’t get in the
ing but when I’m failing I hate it. I hate it. that really, in terms of the art community, way of the vision that I have. I’ve also always
cares about paint handling... or at least the been interested in finding new languages -
Do you know what your other way that I would traditionally think about that’s just like a part of my process. And it
paintings are about? Do you know paint handling. seems like working reveals more avenues
what the faces are about? and more places to go through so I probably
I loved being one of the few who was doing get off on walking down new trails. Its ex-
Ha. That’s such a brutal question. I mean that kind of painting. It was exciting. It felt citing walking down the trail. It doesn’t hurt
I could tell you the starting point. I know more badass. Like I loved signing the front when you first start walking down the trail.
how I started doing them. It’s really a very of my painting when nobody was signing the At first you know, it’s exciting. It’s not until
front of their painting. That was an art world you’re in it that it’s painful.
thing that the art should speak for itself and
it shouldn’t be about the artist. So definitely Who are your peers in painting right now?
signing the front of my paintings was a fuck
you to... everybody, to all my peers. And I think that Wade Guyton is making some
then at the same time it was a visual clue of the best paintings of anybody right now,
that disappeared at some point. Now paint- and it’s kind of amazing that one of the best
ing is resurgent and the artists that are painters doesn’t care about paint. And really
being most talked about, the young ones in doesn’t care about paint. Has never cared
their 20s and their 30s, are painters. about paint. I’ve always cared about paint.
He doesn’t care about paint.
Do you think about your audience
when you’re painting? Conversely, he didn’t paint as a kid. He is
just somehow making the best paintings of
I think about my audience a lot. I think about pretty much anyone. And he’s printing them
showing my work a lot, and how it feels, on a computer. They’re printed on a com-
and what it means and the vibe of the thing. puter. They’re amazing. I live with one - it’s

Photos by: Ward Robinson

amazing. It’s so exciting. I don’t know why It’s really not, but it has kind of the appear- know? I got off one train and I’m on another
it’s so exciting; its very straightforward. A ance of it. So I like that. and it seems like it’s going pretty good and
lot of his paintings are just X’s. It’s just an I’m into it but...
X! Why is that so exciting?? It’s one X after I think that Tomma Abts has been making
another X and then they slowly change. some great abstraction for a while and we Well you talk a lot about badass ideas
You know? They’re just kind of different. are kind of the same age. Kai Altoff is doing and feeling like a badass and saying
Sometimes they’re in a color. I don’t know really great figurative work with really fuck you, it sounds like you lived that
why that’s exciting to me, or exciting to great color and definitely is a hundred per- life in a kind of an obvious way for a
anyone else. I know that I get a tremendous cent committed. And then you know Tauba long time. How did that show up?
amount of pleasure from it. And then there Auerbach - she’s done some fold paintings
are also these flames like flaming U’s - that are both very process and very optical. I did do a small part of one body of work
you know he’s got flames on a painting. I I don’t know, those people are making pret- on cocaine.
wish there was a word other than cliché ty great paintings and I think the common-
to talk about that-but it’s like fire and ality for me that I see is total commitment Like how many paintings is that?
passion. What could be more over the top and total abandon.
and obvious? And at the same time he has Maybe five in total, some red and yellow
found a way to do fire and it’s beyond fire Is it important for you to live butterflies from the 2007-2008 series I did.
and it feels so serious and specific. How is that way as well as paint that And yellow’s an extremely hard color to
that possible? How is that possible? And way? With total abandon? deal with. Ultimately it made me slow-
probably in part because there’s some kind er and it made me really paranoid so at
of a distance from it there’s some kind of I think I’m in a transitional period and I the end of the day there were no studio
coldness, or it’s such a hands-off approach. don’t really know exactly how I’m living, you assistants. I wouldn’t let any of the studio

114

Photo by: Ward Robinson

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

assistants come in and clean my paint or Yeah the auction had either just started or all my behavior seem safer; that I can
move my paint, I pulled down the blinds was about to start and they were going to have the idea that I’m being open.
it started freaking me out with the people do a few people before my work went and
walking by and I had to drink like half a so I wanted to go outside and take a piss Yeah
bottle of tequila to go home. so I could come back in in time to see my
thing. And then I took a piss and then I saw And intimate
Hahahahahaha this dude that really tall black dude from
Project Runway and I started talking to him. Yes
I thought it would be better to go home kind And then I could barely stand and then I
of drunk than just wired off my tits. just decided I needed to take a walk and so And that’s not in fact true
I needed some flat grass and I guess that’s
Hahahahaha where I walked out and...To me it wasn’t Right
passing out I just wanted to find a place to
Yeah I would go to the studio before I took sleep, which was common. And then the Because I am protected.
a shit. And I would hold it in and I would cops didn’t like that and so I started talking
clench my ass and I would cut the lines up. smack to the cops and then the cops put Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. But I’m making my
And I loooved just the torture of chopping me in this van. It was our van that was work in a very private place so there isn’t
the lines while I had to take a shit I would driving us around, and I started talking interference from other people at that
do a line and I would run to the toilet and I back to the cops and stuff and he said if I point.
would do that every morning. Every morning. stepped off of the van he was gonna take
me to jail and I was like, “Excellent!” you So is that a more clear conversation with
(Crying.) For how long? know? I wanted to go to jail, but the woman what you’re trying to get across then?
who was working with me was trying to
I don’t know, maybe three weeks, maybe get pregnant at the time and she said that I might feel more trepidation but I can see
longer, on and off. I allowed myself a line I was compromising that, or something to way bigger adventures. I feel like I can take
for every triangle I did and I would keep the affect, if I got off and so I didn’t get off. on so much more without protection.
track with the time and everything. And I That’s it.
don’t think it was good coke too. It was very That sounds delightful. 115
speedy and it my hands would be trembling But that shit isn’t going on anymore and the
by the end. new thing is like, this is the first time that I It’s insane. It’s life changing. It’s life chang-
don’t 100% know who I am or what is going ing. And then businesswise I’ve been able
Is that logbook around anywhere? on. Right? And I don’t know how I want to to move there in a way that I’ve never done
present myself. And it wasn’t as though I before. Not with this kind of freedom.
Yeah. I wrote down how many triangles was faking it... I was doing my thing before.
I did. (See page 104) I was committed to it. It wasn’t an act that What’s next for you? You’re working on the
was who I was. Now I’ve changed. It’s a gestural abstraction? That’s where it is?
Okay. So while we are on the subject, really weird place to be.
please tell me the story of what No, I mean, yes I’m doing that. I’m almost
happened at that auction in Texas. So has the work changed as a result of this done with the show at Blum and Poe, which
new position that you’re in experientially? is gonna be the 10 Indians, plus maybe five
Well what have you heard about it? others. Then in September I’m gonna open
I work really slow but I feel like I’m gonna be able up a show in New York at Anton Kern of
What I heard is that was a charity auction? to make bigger changes and take bigger risks painted sculpture, and I’m maybe halfway
without it feeling so life and death. I think they will done with that. While I’m doing both of
Haha Yeah be bigger things. And I think I will be able to make these things, I’ll also be working on the
them faster. And with more abandon. gestural stuff. So I have a lot of languages
And the way the story initially got to me that I feel I’m really in control of and I get a
it sounded like you were overwhelmed by That surprises me. lot of pleasure exploiting those languages.
the price your work went for, got super I’ve also got a new language that I’m trying
drunk and passed out. Which doesn’t Really? to develop, so far unsuccessfully. So I have
seem like it was what happened it just other things that I’m working on while I’m
sounded like you were kind of on one Yeah, because my experience is
and you stumbled outside and somebody when I’ve got drugs and alcohol in failing at this thing.
went after you and you kind of told them my system I have a layer of cotton in
to fuck off and took a nap on the lawn. between me and the world that makes





DANCING
DANCING WITH THE DEVIL

The Oral History of Malibu as told to
Ward Robinson and Matt Nosbusch
Written by: Ward Robinson
Art by: Matt Nosbusch

WITHIn the 1980s the descendants of the Point Dume Bombers, a notorious crew
of surfers at a spot in West Malibu so heavily localized that for as long
as anyone could remember even people who lived a few hundred yards down
the beach were considered unwelcome interlopers, clashed headlong into a
migration of rich people, and the huge quantities of money and cocaine
they required to survive.
The resulting explosion would launch legendary surf careers, spew
glorious teenage debauchery, squash a decades-old beach idyll, create
HEhighly skilled leather and metal workers, attract a swarm of gun-

DEVILtoting DEA agents, kill and disable several poor souls, and unveil to the
world an endemic style of leather-steel-and-tattoos-meet-progressive-surf-
aggression that was so powerful, it would fuel the massive Orange County
surf industry for decades to come.

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

50’s GENESIS

Early days moves to Malibu were runs away
from the Hollywood lifestyle, not toward it.
Malibu started as a 17,000-acre ranch owned by
the Rindge family. May Rindge, the widow of the
mogul, carried on in his absence for decades;
first fighting railroad expansion through
Malibu (successfully) and then highway expansion
through Malibu (unsuccessfully). Much of the
early population growth centered around the
swank ‘Malibu Colony’, a gated community just

west of Third Point at Malibu’s Surfrider Beach.   119

Matt Rapf: May Rindge started selling off lots
in The Colony or renting them out to pay her
legal fees. A lot of studio people bought the
lots. My grandfather worked closely with Louis
Mayer at MGM and got his first taste of Malibu
in the 30s. My father bought a house and moved
to The Colony in the 50s. I grew up there in the
60s when there were a lot of families, a lot of
full time people.

Andy Lyon: My dad started surfing in Malibu
in the late 40s. My grandfather was selling

50’s GENthat Colony stuff. He had the house that Donald

Sterling has now; he was given that house as the
sales agent for The Colony.

Once The Colony had been established as a
beachhead, surfing progression happened quickly
at the world-class wave. In the 40s and 50s
every great surfer in the world was developing
there or travelled there.

Gordon Quigg: Working in the 50s in Malibu my
dad Joe made a number of crucial improvements
to surfboard design, each of which made boards
function much, much better. He created nose-to-
tail foiled rails, implemented the first board
rocker, and built the first glassed-on, short-
based, deep fins. Boards also became shorter
and, due to his innovative use of balsa wood
blanks instead of old redwood, significantly
lighter. Because of all my dad’s innovations,
ease of use dramatically increased, which opened
up the sport to women and young people, and
increased the popularity and progressive nature
of the sport.

MRa: There were watermen in The Colony back
then, like George Elkins. He was a waterman; he
was a surfer. He’d swim out to the rocks off Old
Joe’s and get lobster. The sea was so plentiful
back then, you know? Old Joe’s was named after a
guy named Joe Shecter and he surfed there in the
40s and the 50s. There was the Pete Shammies,
the Steve Little John’s, the O’Neil brothers,
Andy’s older brother, Butch Linden, Harry Linden.
These were the older guys that came before us.

AL: My dad was surfing with Renny Yater, Walter
Hoffman, Flippy Hoffman, Buzzy Trent, Matt Kivlin,
all those guys in the early days of Malibu.

The very first board I ever stood up on was
shaped by Angie Reno. I was 5 ½ and I just went
out in the shore break at The Colony and turned
around and stood up on the thing and rode it.
That was ‘67.

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

MRa: The Colony was weird. We called The Colony
‘its own little planet’ because it was gated, it
was fenced, there was a guardhouse. So Ian Warner
would say, ‘The Colony is the world’s most
expensive prison. Once you get in, you can’t
get out.’ You had all this money and you had
these famous people. I mean Larry Hagman lived
at one end of the beach and he had a giant
Genie bottle, 12-feet tall in front of his

house. Okay? And he was the stoniest character 121
I ever met. It’s the 1970s and pot and drug
use were rampant and the parents were stonier
than any of the kids. It was just sort of a
surreal place. The ocean is kind of where it
all made sense. The ocean was always like this
level playing field. There were no favors. It
didn’t matter who you were, you just had to pay
your dues. My father thought surfers were bums
and he didn’t surf. He didn’t want me to have
anything to do with it. You know, he tried to
get me into Little League or tennis but I took
to the water. The ocean was my front yard and I
just gravitated toward it.

AL: There was trippy stuff going on. Brian
Asher, he takes surf pictures down at Malibu,
his dad was the producer of Bewitched and did
all the Beach Blanket Bingo movies. His parents
got divorced. His mom was a full alcoholic
and her house was out of control, where the
Christmas tree never went down. It was like a
free zone so all the surfers were coming down
there, hanging out there, getting stoned; Butch
Linden, Angie Reno and Kelly Fields, who was
like a great surfer but blew his brains out in
the parking lot at Malibu one night.

60’s INNOCENCE

While the eyes of the world were on the surf
stars at First Point, miles up the Pacific
Coast Highway there were more rugged families,
sinking roots into the wilds of West Malibu.

Land out that far west was remote, cheap and

60’sundeveloped; people went there to escape the

prices of Los Angeles proper and lived a country
life of rugged, self-reliant individualism.

Decades before the California Coastal Commission

INNOCENCEforced throughways and opened parklands, beach

access was severely limited and huge swaths of
the 30 miles of Malibu coastline were surfable
only by those who lived there. It was an innocent
time of wild natural beauty and lonely surf.

Morgan Runyon: My there were only two traffic signals to Santa
grandmother moved to Monica from West Malibu. It was very rural.
this area in 1937 because
she was low on money Tim Biglow: Topanga was private, Latigo was
and it was cheaper to private. Point Dume was all private. I had a
live here. The mail buddy lived at a house on Zeroes, which was
came once a week and private, and Vincent Price had a house out there
there were no phones. too. All those houses are gone after the State
If an important call took over but at that time we’d go surf there
came in it would go to and we’d be the only guys out. At Little Dume,
The Colony and they we rode down on horses between Wildlife and
would have to drive up Zumirez. There’s a trail we could ride down
and get her. right to the beach.

Tim Ryan: In the 40s AL: You could ride all over the place, there
and 50s the west of were no fences anywhere.
Malibu was all desolate.
When my parents bought Tom Daniels: My parents moved here to Point Dume
out here [Broad Beach] in the 50s. My dad helped us build surfboards in
in 1960 there were only the backyard.
5 houses in this area
and there were only TR: Morgan Runyon’s family had so much history here,
sand dunes across the his dad having The Old Place, his grandfather
street. At the time my running ranches around here. They hunted all
dad worked for GTE and their food in the hills around here. In the 1950s
his employers were and 1960s it wasn’t cool to be a surfer. They did
saying, ‘Why you moving it because of the beach lifestyle they grew up
out there? It’s the on. People frowned upon them.
sticks.’. Back then

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

MRu: Growing up we had a pretty amazing child- 70’s EXPERIENCE
hood. There was a time in ’72,’73,‘74 when I
just started surfing, it was more single fin, The lack of people in West Malibu initially
no leashes, a little more of that 60s vibe. encouraged a sense of openness and adventure. But
change comes quickly and in the 1970s surfing
Michael and Kevin Brady and I were good popularity rose and new crowds put heavy pressure
buddies and we’d surf in the afternoon. The on the limited wave supply. 
tide would drop. Somehow Michael discovered
that we could catch baby lobsters in the Territorialism rose sharply in response and
tide pool by kind of flushing them in, became highly specific, especially at quality
herding them into the shallow water and waves, with each small surf spot the sole domain
they’d hop in and we’d build little fires. of its inhabitants. Even close neighbors were
We’d roast them in between surf sessions. being forcefully rebuffed when trying to paddle
We called them summer shrimp. out. You had to live right there to surf that
rock pile and if you didn’t, the guys who did were
At that time on Broad going to hold it down.
Beach there was this
amazing guy—his name Locals coalesced into small protective units,
is Markus Broyles. He some even going so far as to name themselves,
lived in a shack on the
beach, made me my 70’sUTOPIAIt was like surf utopia. It was what anyone
surfboards, carved EXPERIEcould dream about surf culture.
abalone jewelry, had
tight ropes and a rope like a club or a gang, unified against the common
swing set up on the enemy: anyone else. Localism was motivated by
beach. Markus’ shack was beach preservation as much as wave hoarding;
a pretty inspirational littering was not tolerated.
thing for me.
Point Dume, at the time an entirely private idyll,
It was like surf utopia. hid some of the coast’s finest waves behind a
It was what anyone tangle of barbed wire. The few who grew up
could dream about surf surfing Little Dume’s reefs were notorious for the
culture. That’s what it ferocity and diligence they used in enforcing
was. Markus was living their boundaries and hierarchy.
on the sand, had a
little garden, had an The ‘localism’ that was developing in West Malibu
outhouse, smelled of most certainly wasn’t unique to the area or even
fucking B.O. but surfed California but the rural setting allowed for a
all the time,was building distinct Wild West feel and outsider abuse was in
boards, building a boat. full effect. Violence and vigilante justice were
It was pretty magical. rampant in the absence of any other authority and
It was like a cloud of the law that emerged was a natural law: respect
weed smoke. I was just for the beach, respect for hierarchy in the
like,‘Man, this is it. I lineup and protection of the limited resources
want to be this dude.’ of good waves at each spot. Violation of the law
was not treated lightly and each man was expected
to cover his own ass.





MRu: The localism part was always going on when
I started surfing. The time I grew up was probably
the height of it, the late ’70s, early ’80s. I was
a kid getting put in my place and seeing all the
shit go down.

There were certain areas of Malibu where you 
didn’t go. Point Dume didn’t surf at our spots
up near Trancas Point. I remember being conscious
of localism and understanding it at a very young
age. I remember my mom saying, ‘Your cousin is
gonna come up and he wants to go surfing with
you.’ And I remember thinking, ‘Whoa he better not
come up HERE and go surfing!  He’s a big dude,
he’ll probably get beat up!’.

The innocence of localism, I didn’t see. I saw
cars getting fucked up, brutal fights. Sometimes
it was tense in the water. That’s something that
I like not having anymore.

TD: We would be throwing rocks at them and if we
would catch ‘em on the sand we would be punching
their boards first and then if they wanted to
stand up for themselves, then it got ugly.

It was better for them just to leave. We were
gonna break all their fins out, break it in half
and destroy it and then you would have to leave
without your board.

TR: In the 70’s they It was aggressive. That Bill really got into Vietnam vets. Dusty
were way more hardcore. was a hardcore era. it and then Rod Davis. was an international
I like those guys but martial arts champion.
they were assholes in TB: As the 60s ended ‘Nam MRu: Everyone after He was a badass.
the water. If you didn’t was happening. Bill school went and surfed
know them or get along Birkles enlisted, he and then at Point Dume There were no lawyers,
with them you were knew he was 1A and was they had these little there was no Homeland
fucked, it was on. going to get drafted. shacks down in the Security. There was the
gulleys and you’d go highway patrol. They
There were a lot of Bill, Rod Davis, Dusty practice beating each had two cars.
leaners, where they Peak they were the other up. Dume had the
would stab two tires so enforcers and they all Donatoni brothers, you TB: Bill, Rod and Dusty
the car leans over. And went to Vietnam. When didn’t fuck with them. had a studio over there
there were rocks, park- they were gone we had to They would get in the where Kenny G. lives now.
ing bricks, they would step up as enforcers. I gnarliest fights just They had the little
call it a parking ticket. was a lot more aggressive between the two of them. house below and they
back then, we all were. had a garage above and
They would take a brick When Bill came back, he MRa: These myths would in that garage he was
and write “No Vals” on started teaching us be larger than life, teaching us karate.
it and throw it through karate. I guess it was like the guys at Point
the windshield. They kind of their plan to Dume - the Dusty’s and They needed help to fix
would set cars on fire make us good at karate the Bill Birkles and up the studio, so he’d
and shit. and Army up the spot. Rod Davises, the be at the beach and say,

‘Meet me at my house at sundown.’ We would go to his house at night and TRIBES
he’d say, ‘All right, what you’re going to do is go skateboard out to these
construction sites, get the wood, bring it back to the house.’ Then they TB:We had our surf tribe,
would build their studio, their little surf hut, out of those scraps that we named ourselves ‘The
we would find on the point. This was on the cliff, right on the cliff and Point Dume Bombers’.
Kenny G lives there now. They were all living there and Jojo Perrin built
a little shop up above where he stayed and made boards. We wanted to keep people
out but also we’d take
In the 70s Point Dume was entirely private, with zero public access, and a group and go skate-
owned largely by commercial developer Roy Crummer. Due to spotty police boarding. We’d bomb all
presence and a persistent trespassing problem driven by thirst for the these canyons, one guy
quality surf, the children of the point, some of them freshly back from driving. We were always
Vietnam, emotionally twisted up, and conversant in martial arts, were bombing the canyons,
deputized by Crummer to patrol the property and maintain the integrity of bombing the surf, we
the boundary. It did not often go smoothly. even had t-shirts and
things made, saying
TB: Around that time your grandfather got permission for us to patrol Big ‘Point Dume Bombers’.
Dume from Crummer, who owned that property. There was barbed wire across This was the 70s.
there and people weren’t allowed to go across, but they trespassed to surf.
I’m patrolling one day with Rod Davis. Rod went to ’Nam, screw loose, tall MRu: Out at Trancas
guy, really good and slippery in karate. Dangerous, but he was one of us, Point we weren’t that
he was a Bomber, an enforcer. official.

NO VALSThey would take a brick and write “No There was some like

Vals” on it and throw it through the TRIBESlittle T-shirts
windshield. They would set cars on fire.
It was a hardcore era. floating around and
stuff but, no. I mean
So we’re patrolling and there’s four guys crossing the property to go surf. there were the Point
Rod says, “Stop here. It’s private property.” And they’re going, ‘Well, Dume Bombers and Colony
what the hell are you going to do?’. Rod spits in the biggest one’s face and Cool Cats, but no,
says, ‘Come on, who wants to go first?’ - to all four of them. I’m like 17 nothing up our way. We
and I’m just a little guy, and Rod just told me to stay back, he had it. were without names.
Then just by chance, which hardly ever happened, a patrol car comes and
says, Hey, what’s going on here?’. And I have the proof, a documented
letter that says we’re allowed to patrol. Rod is pushing these guys and
telling the patrol, ‘These guys can’t go down here. They gotta get outta
here’. Rod is not too diplomatic. Two more cops pulled up, so now there’s
four and we never get four cops at the same time in ‘74.

So the cop tells these four guys to leave and don’t come back and then
tells Rod, ‘You can’t be this aggressive. You can tell them to leave but
you can’t use bodily harm.’ The whole time Rod is circling around them
and they’re just going, ‘What are you doing?’. Finally there is nothing
more they can say so they leave. I asked, ‘Rod, what exactly were you
doing there with the four cops?’. He says, ‘I was waiting for them to make
a move. I was watching the one with the shifty eyes. I knew he was going
to go first so I was going to hit him, push him into the next guy and when
the next guy is gunning for his gun, I was going to kick him and then...’.

SURF WHERE YOU LIVE, MRu: I remember the first time I went to Little
DON’T SURF POINT DUME Dume I must have been 7 or 8 and Markus Broyles
took me there and Markus didn’t have a car so my
Trace Marshall: Everyone’s scene was so isolated, mom drove us. I remember my mom asking him what
and Little Dume was the extreme of the extreme. he was doing and he was writing this big story
You talked to people who lived at Zuma, or The on the window of the car, explaining who he was
Colony guys or even Morgan living up at Encinal and who he was with so it would be cool and the
Bluffs, they all had their scene but Little Dume car wouldn’t get thrashed in case someone came
was a subculture, of a subculture, of a subculture. along and saw a foreign car.
It was like you can’t go there. You can’t film
that shit. It was the pinnacle of tribe culture, Pascal Stansfield: You didn’t mix. You didn’t
the pinnacle of localism. And you’re talking even go surf Trancas Point, which is like two
about a 10-mile radius. miles away. You didn’t even go to The Hut, which
is like 500 yards away. It was that segregated.
TB: Guys who lived in Santa Monica said to me, I remember Jimmy Gamboa [who lived by The Hut]
‘Oh, you live at Dume. Oh, we get to go surf getting out of school early one day and saying
there, huh?’. I said, ‘Nope, you don’t get to his mom wrote him a note and I said, ‘You better
surf there. My family won’t allow it and I won’t not fucking go surf Little Dume’. I didn’t know
either.’ The population was a lot less then and about surfing other spots. That was enough, you
you knew everybody in the lineup. Guys didn’t just stayed at Little Dume.
come to the different beaches unless you were
invited, but then it was hard to get invited RESPECTThat is how they taught respect. You didn’t
because you don’t bring people in. The word was;
‘You bring somebody, they ride your waves’. get yelled at - you got slapped or punched.

SURF WHERE
YOU LIVE,TR: Was there tension
between Trancas guys and said beat it and get down there and you
they would leave. weren’t allowed to bring
people down there. It
DON’T SURFand Point Dume guys? TB: One time there was was barbed wire. No way
For sure, yeah. Most a group of guys on Big in. I would go down the
guys didn’t get along Dume and they told them beach and you had to
at that time, they they can’t be here on clear it by other
even fought at parties people if you were
POINT DUME.and stuff. We weren’t the beach because it’s going to bring a guest
allowed to go surf private. That guy was down to go surfing.
Point Dume, they weren’tleaving his trash and
allowed to come up here.he started mouthing off,Matt Nosbusch, I was
so my brother Mike says, in love with the guy.
He was the coolest guy
You surfed your spot ‘Fuckers shouldn’t even and he wouldn’t give
me the time of day.
that was how it was up be down here,’ and took a He was a dick because
I didn’t move there
and down most of the wine bottle and smacked till I was 5. So I was
a kook, an outsider.
coast in the 70s. You the guy in the face. He

waited for your spot to had to go to court.

be good. You didn’t go That was my brother.

over there, Point Dume

Bombers that was it. MRu: Big Dume was

pretty localized.

TD: We dominated. Nobody Trancas Point was

came in here, if they heavily localized. It

did they got taken out was very, very tight.

of the water. There were

some fights, but more PS: The most you would

vibe and intimidation. see in the water on a

The locals controlled good day was like 20

what was happening, you people, all locals

just paddled up to guys because you couldn’t

RESPECT

TB: In the lineup at But the other side is me. I’ll never forget
Little Dume, there was being greedy and not that, and I never got
respect in everything. wanting anyone to surf in anyone’s way again.
There were the older your spot. That is how they taught
gentlemen, Old Man Comen, respect back then, you
Old Man Anawalt, Dick, TR: The territorialism didn’t get yelled at - you
those old men could sit was kind of everywhere; got slapped or punched.
out at the point.Then it wasn’t just here in
you had to work your way Malibu. You go to Hawaii MRu: You see people
up. There was a pecking or Humbolt or San Diego throwing their trash
order and everybody people took pride in and that starts a highly
respected each other. their area where they protective thing, without
were from. a doubt.
TD: It was orderly; you
didn’t paddle around RESPECTI think that’s where Seeing someone spray 
anyone. Everybody knew the misrepresentation paint on rock, that’s
each other, so if of localism comes from; the one thing that
someone came out that it is just a bunch of drives me nuts.It’s
you didn’t know you people protecting the like how can you have
would look at everyone place that they respect. such disrespect?
and say ‘Do you know When they see people
him? I don’t know him’.  coming in who don’t It’s not even for like
And then he would have respect it that is where a local, it’s just for
to go. the confrontations came nature, it’s for Mother
  in, it wasn’t just, ‘I’m Earth. Or littering. Those
gonna harass him.’ That is things definitely could
my understanding of it. get my blood boiling.

MRu: Localism is a surf I remember one time I
gang culture. I was got in Kurt Lamson’s
definitely part of it way and he almost
and very involved in it. slapped my head off.
It’s strange because Even though he is like a
localism, I understand dad to me, I got in his
it but I’m kind of way and I fucked up his
embarrassed by some of wave. I was just a little 
it too. Some of it is tiny grom trying to get
pretty ugly. There’s back out through the
a reason for it and waves and I almost got
it’s kind of like the shit kicked out of
respect and having
appreciation for where
you surf and wanting
to protect that.

80’s REVELATIONS

Point Dume in the 60s and 70s was like Brigadoon,
the enchanted hamlet, isolated and pure,
revealing it’s gifts to the occasional lucky
visitor - then slamming shut and slipping back
into the fog - unseen and unreachable. The 80s
began to see the beginnings of the erosion of
Malibu beach culture, and eventually its death
knell. The beauty of its hills, cliffs and beaches
attracted the moneyed elite from inland.

In a flood, huge quantities of cash, drugs, large
houses, absentee parents, and bored teenagers
arrived and brought with them opportunities for
collective mayhem and creativity.

The irresistible grappling hooks of both progress
and partying tethered the magical land to shore
and sank it amongst the rocks, where it lies
even now - a skeleton of it’s former glory.

130

PS: It’s funny because every time I tell this TR: My brothers had a lot of friends die, a lot

story of growing up there people are like, of ODs, and then some people have disabilities;

‘Oh you live in Malibu. It’s so nice, you’re people have bad hearts and stuff. That generation

80’s REVELATIONSso lucky’ and it wasn’t like that. It was thewas big on coke and acid and Quaaludes.
cheapest place to live. We were living in Santa
Monica and it was cheaper to live in Point Dume. Someone would crash their car and die. Chris
It was dubbed “Poverty Point”. Williams was all fucked up when he got chased by
the cops and launched off Latigo Canyon. If he

I remember my parents met Lou Adler and his wife, was in his right mind he would never have done

because I was friends with Cisco and my mom told that. That was a good education, I saw that and

her we just moved to Malibu and she said ‘Where?’. thought, ‘I don’t want to do any of that.’

And my mom said, Point Dume and she said, ‘Oh.

My drug dealer lives in Point Dume.’. MRa: It had a lot to do with punk rock. We grew

up surfing single fins and getting stoned and

MRu: In the 80s the dynamic in Malibu started to listening to Led Zeppelin and Frampton, all that

change, the “I” generation started, our generation, kind of trippy little music, and then in late

which I view as being an ugly generation. Malibu 70s punk rock came in and then thrusters came

was still cheap up until that point and then in. You look at the surfing in the 70s on single

when money started coming in it got more fins and it was all smooth and styley and groovy

dysfunctional. There were parents that were not and the music at that time, it all sort of was

around, big empty houses, kids with a lot of like homogenous, right? And then you got punk

money and we did what we wanted. Then cocaine rock coming in and different, new boards

came to town and fucked up everything. People and you just could go off, you know and it was

became fueled by cocaine and so unbelievably all just representative of the lifestyle. I

bitchin’ in their own minds that they didn’t remember going to Hollywood to see these shows, 

have to do anything except talk about themselves.  Dead Kennedys and it sort of mirrored how we

wanted to surf and how we wanted to live and that

You have to be humble, but that’s me reflecting angst of growing up here and like loving it and

on it now. I lived it, I was there, I participated hating it and wanting to go off. 

in it, it was fun, we had a great time. At the

time I wouldn’t have said it was ugly or dark.  MRu: The hippie thing had a great common core:

At the time I would have said, ‘Fuck you. Go back peace, love, try to be good. Our generation had

to wherever you’re fucking from.’ to rebel against something so we became the fuck

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

you generation. It was teenager aggression, we ran around out of control having a blast, getting
in fights and protecting our domain. There were always fights everywhere you went. You’d go to a
party, there’d be a big fight. It was normal in a way, but we had this other element where crazier
stuff could go on because there were people who had a lot of money and access to a lot of other
stuff. When people got out of control they could get really out of control. We also happened to
film it. It was fun, we had a great time. Most everyone is fully recovered.

PS: The Point was segregated into different zones. You don’t go down Zumirez, there were crack
houses. Jerry Connelly, he had a little house where three of my friends were doing ‘Easter egg
hunts’ in the carpet for crack rocks, naked. He got them hooked on crack and he would have them
have sex for crack, these guys were like 14, 15 years old. It was the Wild West, that’s the only
way to describe it. We would break into the community center and spray paint it. Halloween was the
scariest time. The guys terrorized. They had trucks just patrolling with fire extinguishers,
frozen eggs, it was fucked up. You didn’t go there on Halloween.

There was no one in charge, there were like four cops in the whole area. Cops didn’t come to Little
Dume anyway, it was so guarded and locked off and undesirable. It was really a contrast: we would 

spearfish off the beach. didn’t come to parties lot of this is about Dave White. Those guys
Johnny Carson would hit and if they did they  really, the hollow all got into karate
golf balls off the were nervous to break little waves.  back then. Dave White
bluff and me and my it up. Those were the was just totally aggro,
friend would go diving best years of my life. Trancas Point, that’s  Johnny Gyro always
for them and knock on That’s all gone now. what makes it very getting in fights.
his door and he would    territorial. It’s a
pay us to give them MRu: This is how Malibu  very tight nucleus, a Crazy.
back. The beach was a worked; in grade school couple take off spots
hidden paradise but it we all went to different and it doesn’t break
was so crusty and dirty  schools, in junior high very often, but when
around it that the we all went to school  it’s good it’s good.
beach didn’t have that together and for me
allure, it was rusty that’s where I started AL: The ’80s in Malibu
barbed wire fences and surfing everywhere else. were just fucked. It
angry people. Everyone had their own was a nightmare. Matt
little waves and those Rapf, Ian Warner,
Dusty Peak tried to  waves all have their myself, we were like
institute a ‘no leash’ good moment, they’re just the only ones really
rule in the lineup for not that consistent. from around here
a while. He would bring surfing Malibu. We’d go
little snippers and he That’s what makes those down there and be out
would have them in his waves really special, numbered in our own
wetsuit and go up and you gotta know. There  backyard, getting in
talk to someone and are all these elements hassles one against 10.
‘snip’ - he would cut that needed to come 
their leash. And then together and you can The crowds were just
they’d be like, ‘My see them happening at insane, too, because
leash broke’.  certain spots. When I you had really good
say those waves I’m surfers. Anytime there
TR: We all rode dirt just talking about the was waves it’d be like
bikes and there were really hollow waves, Nathan Pratt, Jay Riddle,
tons of trails, cops which to me is what a Allan Sarlo, Ronny Jay,

VALS

132 TR: Surfing got more popular in the 70s so it got that and I remember the
more territorial. The 80s were the end of the older guys driving by
VALS whole spot by spot localism deal. We all became and just flipping me
friends. It was a losing battle at that point, off. Like ‘FUCK YOU’.
because the San Fernando Valley was growing and
getting popular and people began coming and I remember after doing 
surfing our spots. contests for a while I
got asked to ride for
That is where the disrespect from the Valley Slams Surfshop. Slams
started to come in, people wouldn’t just surf by was the biggest Val
themselves, they would tell their bros and then thing ever. It was the
all of a sudden they would come as a group, so worst thing you could
we all joined hands like, ‘We are protecting this ever do.
against you.’. That’s when Point Dume and this area
became one family, against general disrespect. So I would go to the
contest with the Slams
TB: Back then you always thought, ‘Go home Valley’. board and then I would
That was yelled all the time. You’d see people  find these stickers at
driving down the road doing stupid stuff, you’d the contests and when
yell,‘Go back to the Valley!’. That was a standard I came home I would
call, you know? If there’s some kook in the cover up the Slams logos 
water, same thing, ‘Go back to the Valley!’’ with them. Then one day
Everybody was “Valleys”. at Big Dume Wendell
Wall was like, ‘What
MRu: You know, a lot of the Valley guys were kind of board is that?
fucking just retards. The way they acted was Give me that fucking
so different than how we did. Like swimming thing!’ And he took the
with your shorts and your underwear hanging out board away from me and
the bottom, that kind of thing. There were a lot took the stickers off
that kind of like got it and fit in, but still and was like, ‘Are you
we were bred to hate them and I hated them, and FUCKING KIDDING ME? Get
ironically, I fucking love the Valley now. The the fuck out. GET OUT!’
Valley is the greatest.
So I was hated. I was
PS: I was so young but I just remember Runman hated because I wanted
movies were out already and that was our bible. to be a pro surfer. I
No Vals, to the death. Fuck Vals. And then when wanted to surf forever.
I started surfing I realized these Valley guys 
are better than the local guys.

One day I was at Zuma and a guy said I should do
the NSSA contest and I said, ‘What’s that?’ I did
that and met the guys at contests and became
friends with them. So I started hanging out with
the guys from the Valley. Well, word got out about

OUR BIBLEI just remember the Runman movies

were out and they were our bible.

RUNMAN

In 1986 the surf world was old and boring.
Moving directly from the cosmic, trippy, flowey
vibe of the 70s to Echo Beach’s neon wetsuits and
new wave haircuts, it had skipped completely over
punk rock, thrash metal, avoiding anything messy 
and dirty.

RUNMANThree movies released by a tiny Malibu-based
board bag and wax comb company owned by Ray
Kleiman and Morgan Runyon would change all that
forever, delivering three huge new ideas;
1. Radical and ridiculous need to be married to

each other 2. The lifestyle is as important as the

action and 3. It’s all better if the kids film it

themselves. A stolen soundtrack, a budget of $400,

goofy narration by Drew Steel of the Surf Punks, 

gritty Super 8 scenes of fights, parties, idiotic

antics and camerawork described by Matt Warshaw

of Surfer Magazine as ‘dark, jumpy, scratchy and

fuzzy’ - Runman had none of what the big budget

surf films of the time boasted: no stars, no slick 

production values, no budget. 133

What it had in spades was an alignment of look,
feel, sound and content that bypassed any marketing
expert. Runman let the culture of Malibu, fully
formed and leaping from the beaches of Little
Dume and Trancas Point, speak directly and
loudly to the world.

The world was listening; the films bubbled up the
coast and out to the world, blowing minds and
sparking stoke. The surf industry may have been
old and boring, but they weren’t too stupid to
know it. Thirsty for new ideas, Volcom, Gotcha’s
More Core Division and a few smaller brands saw
the effect the movies were having, took the look
and feel and ran with them. Copycat films popped
up almost immediately, but packed with industry
surf stars who were suddenly edgy. Stores filled
with the leather, steel and fiberglass fashion
worn by the kids in West Malibu in the movies.

The Runman company failed not long after the
release of its third film ‘Runman 69’ but the DNA
of what they did generated hundreds of millions
of dollars below the Orange Curtain. You probably
own a t-shirt that wouldn’t have been made if not
for Morgan and Ray. Even the beach lizard lifestyle
of today, seen in the vanguards of Marinelayer
productions, What Youth, Desillusion, etc... is
an echo of the message that the Runman films
first broadcast.





136

MRa: So what happened with Runman was that my West Malibu. That’s how we connected with Morgan. 
next-door neighbor was Ian Warner, who was, aside Ray moved to a house on the Encinal Bluffs.
from Jay Riddle, the best surfer I had ever seen. Morgan lives on the Encinal Bluffs, like at the end
He was my best friend, we’d known each other of Broad Beach. Ray kind of went to a whole new
since we were 3 years old and he just was a group of friends and he started filming Trancas
natural, phenomenal surfer and he grew up in a Point and he started venturing to those little
dysfunctional family. His mom was divorced and coves in Point Mugu and we’d all go with him.
she married this guy named Ray from Chicago and 
Ray had a son named Ray Kleiman. MRu: Well, Runman is my name Morgan Runyon and Ray
Kleiman’s names put together. I’m the ‘Run’ and he’s
Ray didn’t surf and he and his brothers moved in the ‘Man’. Ray and I went to high school together 
to Ian’s house, next to mine. Ray started filming and I graduated high school in ’82 or ’83, I can’t
Ian with a Super 8 camera, and so Ray had this remember, and Ray was always filming. That was
thing. He wasn’t like us at all, but he had this Ray’s thing. We used to show his super 8 movies.
sensibility. He just filmed random stuff, homeless
guys, weird shit going on at the beach and he’d The thing was if your ego got the best of you
snip them all together. and you stilled it at that perfect moment when 
you were in the barrel but you stilled it for
Ian lived in this little room at the back; we too long - the film would melt. And that was
called it ‘The Cave’. Ray sort of started putting always the greatest thing. Ray was always
together these movies and we’d all get in there filming at Malibu and I kind of met him and then
and Ray would show his movies and we’d get stoned he moved up to the west side of Malibu and we 
and watch them. Eventually Ray’s dad and Ian’s started hanging out and that was like 1980.
mom divorced. So it was goodbye, Colony, hello 

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

MRa: I started this little pirate radio thing out more in other people’s reactions. People I meet, 
here in Malibu called ‘KBU’. It was in this little who figure out who I am, start quoting lines
garage and I called it the ‘Mad Matt’ show where from the movie to me and that’s pretty funny. It’s
I played all my punk rock stuff. It was a free- pretty cool too. Reflecting on yourself is a
for-all. So when Ray decided to make the movie, good way to move forward in the future.
he was like, ‘I want your music’. So I had these
boxes of albums and he’d just requisition them and  We started off making products, wax combs, board
put them to the soundtrack of the Runman movies bags, foil stamping, so we started as a surf
and I was kind of like the musical consultant. company and ended as a film company. A lot of our
I’d tell him what to do and he didn’t license any friends went to college - that was our college
of it - it just all went in the movies. Then Ray education. Ray and I went to business school and
connected with the Surf Punks. we failed. The beauty of us failing is that it is
what it is a time capsule that never sold out. 
MRu: A big part of the video too was Drew Steele
of the Surf Punks’ narration. Prior to Runman
everyone had made slick surf films, which were
half-assed and hokey. We decided to go into it
being hokey and have fun with it.

Runman is definitely a documentation of our kind
of crazy youth stupidity, but it meant a lot, to
a lot of people. Sometimes I watch it and I’m like,
‘Oh, you gotta be fucking embarrassed’. But there’s
a lot of it that’s really amazing. I see that

THE WALL HOUSE

If there is an allegorical ground zero for the 
positive and negative changes that ripped through
Point Dume in the 80s, it is The Wall House.
Owned by an aggressive and progressive family of
surfers, they cultivated a lawless creative and
youthful anarchy at their sprawling compound 
that connected to the beach (physically and
culturally). Christian Fletcher spent a lot of time
there, pushing aerial surfing with Wendell Wall
and playing in the speed metal bands centered at
the compound.

There were lots of surf and skate sessions, epic 
parties, drugs and alcohol consumed, speed metal
played, progressive airs launched, Runman sections
filmed, leather and metal art made and at least
one attack by a gang pissed off about a drug deal.
Simultaneously, real estate prices on Point Dume
were skyrocketing, fences were being built for
the first time and the new, wealthy, staid neighbors
were not amused by The Wall house antics. In the 
end, the DEA raided the house and shot the dog.

138

YOU SUCKIt was really progressive. Wendell was my idol and he

would say, “Do an air, pussy! Weak! You suck! Weak!”

Matt Nosbusch: The Walls owned this big compound
on Zumirez, it was Gene Wall the dad and then the
two sons Bill and Wendell. They were super intimi-
dating. I was always taught to stay away from them.

MRu: In the beginning Gene needed money so he
started renting out rooms to all his sons’ young
friends. Everyone got a package deal. If you lived
there your rent and food was included and you’d
just make big slop things and it was like a surf 
family house. Gene being a pretty colorful crazy
guy himself, let things develop how they developed.

PS: There were five trailers on the property but
it was all spread out. It was overgrown so there
would be these little trails that connected all
over. And it went down to the beach. There was a
trampoline and a snowboard with the rails taped
up and that’s where we would go practice our airs.
We would be there all day long on the trampoline.
 

MN: When I first started surfing it was almost MRa: Yeah, the wild card in all of this is there’s
like The Wall house was a little bit like the Hui no real rhyme or reason at all. Somebody could
in Hawaii, where it was like the black shorts, the have severe mental problems and it would create
long hair, the TR boards with the super aggressive a new norm. There was nobody like him at The
airbrushes; grim reapers, guillotines with a guy’s Colony. He didn’t have a lot of fans. You had
head chopped off saying ‘No Vals’. Barbra Streisand 10 doors away.

They’d come walking down from Zumirez and it was AL: Streisand had to go past their house and it

almost like, ‘All right, shit’s gonna go down. was crazy. He had a bunch of kids renting rooms

Something’s gonna happen’. That was when it was and there was all kinds of shit going on. Animals, 

dark, like you’d be out in the water and Wendell skate ramps, people getting fucked up and all

Wall and Chris Williams would paddle out with kinds of kids getting out of control. It was like

beers shoved in their wetsuits and it was like,  the crazy house on the street, it was, ‘This is

‘Oh, fuck’. And they would chug the beers and look Malibu! Who are these fucking crazy hillbillies

around for anybody they didn’t know and paddle that are living here? What’s going on here?!?’

up to them saying. ‘This fucker!’ and chuck the

beers in his face and laugh. Then they would take PS: Wendell and Chris Williams invented the modern

off on the first bomb, backwards, and spin around day paparazzi. They got bored with the celebrities

in the barrel. and rich people moving in and they just said,

‘fuck these people’. Streisand started it, really.

PS: Wendell was the best surfer, all the chicks They would build a hut every year down on the 

THEloved him. Wendell was doing stalefishes and WALL HOUSEbeach, like an elaborate hut, with rooms and a
thatched roof and palm fronds, the whole deal.
chicken salads, airs where you grab in between It’s not her property, it’s just below her house
your legs and grab the inside rail.
It was really progressive. Every time Wendell but she started having her goons tear it down

would walk by I would get so nervous because he every year. That’s when they started to say, ‘You

was my idol and he would say, ‘Do an air, pussy! know what? Fuck you.’. So Wendell and them fought

Weak! You suck! Weak!’. All the time rousting. He back in their own way. People were paparazzi at

put razorblades in his fins, the localism was events and things but those guys would hide in

out of control. the trees. Those guys were fucking nuts. They

were staking Mel Gibson out for two days but

AL: There’s definitely the lawless effect of what off-roading their truck to get to his house.

was going on there. That sort of epitomized the

whole craziness of Point Dume, the parties that There is video of Chris Williams talking to Mel

went on and the parents letting anything happen. Gibson. Mel Gibson says, ‘How did you get here?’

and Chris was like,‘Hey man I’m just off-roading.’.

MN: My grandfather would see Gene Wall walking Mel Gibson even wrote that movie Paparazzi and 

and he would have combat boots on and black shorts the lead character’s name is ‘Wendell’. I would

and a lot of times when he’d get to Little Dume get $200 tips for calling them from a payphone if

he would take his shirt off and kind of like I saw any celebrities. That’s where the Point

strut it a little bit with all his Rottweiler’s. Break thing came from. It’s not robbing banks,

He was almost like a circus act. He would walk they were shooting photos and then going on 

on his hands just to show that he still got it. their trips.

He was pretty old at this time.  

MRu: I definitely see how people felt it was

So he’d walk on his hands, all of the beach, with negative, I never did. You could always go over

all the dogs walking around him, just to kind of there and something was happening. It was the

flex on everybody, letting them know like, ‘Don’t chaos and fun of youth. There was always a core

fuck with me. I’m still spry’. of people living there, but it was like a semi-

transient crowd coming and going, like myself,

TD: He can still do handstand pushups. He is like coming in and out. He was a big part of Malibu 

70. People didn’t like Gene, he was a thorn in the  counterculture, for sure it was definitely a 

neighborhood. He had a bunch of kids living in nucleus. That dark energy, in a symbolic way, was

his house. I lived over there for five years. I definitely reflected in that house, but it was our

don’t think my parents were too happy I lived fashion. It was our identity, the look of our time.

there, but it was a party scene. Gene let us have That whole street meets surf, leather and fiberglass,

parties at his house. definitely a lot of it came out of that house.

PS: My best friend Patrick’s brother lived at The stuff you see in Runman is exactly how it was but
Wall house so we would go there. The best surfers it didn’t show everything. I always explain it to 
lived there, the best artists, the hottest chicks, people like, you know those bad guys in Point
the craziest scene. Everyone there did something. Break? The first guys they bust by accident? That
was real. It’s weird to see a Hollywood version
Maybe one guy was a drug dealer but there was but it was that, guys just thrashing in their
music, art, that’s where Bill Wall Leather was and trucks all over the beach.
he employed Drew Steele, my sister’s husband, 
everyone. GTB, Mutilage, Backbone came out of Everything was to the nth degree. Pepperdiners
there. They were just really creative at The were hated. They would get like 6 or 7 of them and
Wall house. rent a house on Point Dume. Pepperdiners had the
hot chicks so we would go and sneak into their
Christian Fletcher played in Mutilage so he would  parties and then Wendell and Chris and Donnie Kulp
come up all the time, Chris Williams was in and Travis Walker and all the older guys would
Mutilage and Backbone he was the best guitarist. come to the parties and just walk up to Pepperdiners
and just head butt them.
Everyone worked and Gene ran the house. It was a
huge house, just a bunch of add-ons. It was like Kick them in the balls. At their own HOUSE. Take 
Gene was taking care of misfit kids because a lot over the house. Kick everyone out from near the
of kids in that generation had deadbeat parents. keg, form a circle and take over the keg. And

THERE WASThere was a DEA guy that lived there for

two years undercover. They were sewing
heroin into Bill Wall’s jackets...

MRa: Drew Steel, Dennis Dragon, they lived at The still to this day when girls go to Pepperdine
Wall House. Everybody lived at The Wall House. The  their sisters or whatever say, “Don’t hang out
Dragons were all through Malibu, that’s a family with Malibu guys.”
of famous musicians; Daryl Dragon was Captain
and Tennille. MRu: Bill was, well they thought he was a big time
drug dealer. In the end it got out of control
PS: Little Dume had the 48 Hours of Power, where probably and raided by the cops. Bill was wacked
everyone would drive their trucks down. Zumirez out on heroin and there were some people that were
had a boat ramp, you could drive onto the beach. fucked up on drugs. Yes. And there was probably 
quite a bit of drug dealing going on there. I don’t
TD: We had a lot of parties there. Sometimes the know if it’s all that bad. To me it was the beauty
tide would come in and you would park as high as in the chaos. But I didn’t live there, so it wasn’t
you could to the cliff and then just come back an every day experience for me. 
and get it at low tide.
PS: There was a DEA guy that lived there for two
PS: They would lay plywood on the beach and set years undercover. They were sewing heroin into 
up the drums and party for 48 hours straight. Bill Wall’s jackets, so they were charging like
Everyone was a really talented musician, so the $20K for a jacket and selling them to Guns ‘n
music would never stop. We would go surfing and  Roses and they were just lined with heroin.
be in the water listening to Mutilage, which was
like death metal. And the guy living there called in a raid on the
night of a Guns ‘n Roses concert, so everyone in 
They had a barge with a diving board and a slide the house was gone except a few guys. My best
in the middle of the bay that they had built by friend’s older brother lived there and was home.
strapping all the old empty kegs together. A ll the There were dogs, helicopters, the whole thing and

he ran down the trail
and there’s a spot called
‘The Rock’ down there
and it juts out and he
hung down in the water
underneath there so the 
dogs lost the scent.

He was there for like
six hours while the
helicopters were
looking around. There 
was also a huge art
piece mailbox that was
hollow and Drew Steele
hung out in there. They
shot Billy’s dog I think.
 
AL: There was all that
stuff going on and
growing weed and drugs
and stuff and there was
always cops going there.
The dad was always
getting arrested and
there was all kinds of
shit happening. The
cops came one time and
shot the dog, killed
the dog in the yard.

MRu: Then there was a 
big—the cops raided it
once and shot the dog.

TD: They shot Billy’s
dog and trashed the
whole place. They
scheduled the raid for
the same night as a
Guns ‘n Roses concert
so we were all gone.
We pulled up in the
limo and it was just
chaos. We all got
arrested. Someone jumped
out and ran to the ocean
and made it to the beach
and swam away.

It was DEA, a big
investigation. I don’t
think they got him for
anything after all that.
In fact Gene ended up 
suing the police depart-
ment and collecting on
them for shooting the
dog and trashing the
house. That was a
bummer. I moved out
immediately after that.

DANCING WITH THE DEVIL

So what has become of Malibu now? If you have names, the keys, the paparazzi going down to the 
been there in the last 15 years you won’t be able beach. But the Point Dume Bombers, talk about
to correlate the stories in this article with the real change. You see some of those guys that are
places you see. Fences are high and prices are like the original Dume guys that still have their
higher. Gone are rolling hills dotted with the houses up there and their houses are like shacks
occasional working-class, ranch-style home. compared to what’s going on around them.

People who bought houses for 8 figures and took TD: At Little Dume today the kids are coming into

up surfing in the last two years, ignorant of the lineup on SUPs saying, ‘My dad bought a $10

its rules, its history and its treasures, have million house here I can do whatever I want.’

overrun and dissolved the endemic surf culture

they came to enjoy. What happens to the people TB: Now there are so many lawyers out there in the

who dedicated their lives to something that has lineup.‘You try to touch me, I’m going to sue you.’. 

disappeared? Like any animal - they can adapt, There have been confrontations like,‘I’m going to

migrate or die; some adapt and thrive, some are own everything you’ve got”. I’ve heard people scream

pushed away by financial pressure, some fail to ing out in the water like that. People are suing

change and are disabled by the weight of what was. people for hitting them or kicking them out now.

The ones who stay are mostly in some form of Ever since it became politically incorrect to be

service sector business, doing a love/hate dance who people should really be, things have changed.

of survival with the moneyed devil that moved

into their paradise… and shoved it into the past. TD: Someone messed with a judge and got a

restraining order put on them and that was a

142 TR: We always had celebrities out here but back in real turning point. Then it was like; ‘OK now
the day they moved here to get away from Hollywood. you can get sued or go to jail.’

They didn’t want paparazzi and all of that.

Nowadays they are the ones having their managers MRu: I haven’t heard the judge story, but that

call the paparazzi saying, ‘Hey I’ll be at Cross  sounds right. To me, those are the things that

Creek at 1pm.’. They are all competing against make my blood boil, because when you enter

each other. They don’t realize they have impeded the water you cross the threshold of the wet

on the locals around here. We used to have sand. You’re entering the Wild West where laws

neighborhoods where we all knew each other and of the land don’t really apply. There are

parents looked after other family’s kids. fundamental laws that have been established for

years, surfing etiquette, and everyone knows them

We have lost that now, because most of these homes and they don’t vary spot to spot. People that try

are weekend warrior places, there are no more to bully their way through those are motherfuckers.

kids. It used to be there were lots of ranch 

houses with no fences and you could just walk up TD: I am close to getting ready to leave Malibu

to somebody’s house and have some beers or whatever. now. It is hard to live here. I am lucky to live

Now there are gates and fences and you may never in one of the oldest houses on Point Dume.

even see those neighbors.

TB: I lived there for 35, 37 years. Now I live

Also, people are willing to pay double the price in Malibu West, but I still go to the Point all
ANCING WITHof the land, just to not have neighbors. So the
people who grew up owning those houses are being the time. When they have these meetings they call
pushed into the trailer parks and sometimes even us and I’ve gone to represent. I moved because of
pushed out of there. My trailer park is horrendous, money. I could afford this. The Point has gotten
pretty heavy. Yeah, pretty much I got priced out.

you can’t even buy a trailer for under a million

HE DEVILdollars. So now where does your schoolteacher, MRu: The irony there is Andy sells those people
houses. Rapf sells them houses. Tom wires their
lifeguard, fireman live? Those are the type that  houses. And TR saves their asses when their SUPS
raises their family beach style. and kayaks drift out to sea.

TB: Point Dume was middle class then. Now the
money has come and it’s changed. ANIMALS: And you sell them food. So everyone is

dancing with the devil.

AL: Those guys up at Point Dume, they kept a lock

on it as long as they could. It’s like the whole MRu: I serve all those great people food! Those

Yuppie stand-up surfer crew at Dume now, I’d wonderful people are my friends. I think that is a

rather surf Malibu with a bunch of fucking idiots wonderful part of your story, everyone is dancing

than go up there and have to be politically with the devil. And we all are. Except Ian Warner,

correct. A bunch of pussies up there now. The who is living down the street in a trailer happy

whole thing with the guy at the gate, checking as ever.

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

EPILOGUE & CREDITS SIDEBAR

MRu: At Trancas Point, down Malibu. Homes built. “The Most Beautiful
there used to be a cave And now the day of reck- Chick In The World”
on the beach and the oning is coming. Mother
beaches used to be a nature, she’ll sort it Andy Lyon’s Art
lot larger. Broad Beach all out. You don’t build Garfunkel story
used to have sand. It a house on a shifting
got a name. Broad Beach plane of sand on a Oh fuck. That was
went from Broad Beach to  glacier. It might have pretty funny. So when
Narrow Beach to No Beach. made good money for my parents used to rent
Doesn’t exist anymore. you when you built it our house out we would
and sold it and those rent the house next door.
But at Trancas Point  five people that have But people wouldn’t know
sold it since then and that we were living
there was this big cave it’s been remodeled 12 right next door! We’d
times, but eventually rent out this bitchin’
we all hung out in. We that thing is going to house next door and make
wash away. a bunch of money.
even sometimes left our 
It’s like The Colony, a
surfboards in there, fucking ghetto - it’s on
a sand spit. It’s going.
when there was a lot of It started as something 
neat. Little bungalows
sand. Then they built on the beach for your
Hollywood getaway and
this huge house on the then it got this thing We rented it out to Art
going. So prestigious,
Point, which we fucking gated, it’s built on an Garfunkel one year when
ice cube with the 
hated. It was a warzone warming earth. So, yeah, I was 12 or 13 and I
EPILOGUEfor us when they built it. that’s my feelings on
We fucked with them. Now that. I definitely have was supposed to do the
looking back at it, some feelings there.
understanding archi- gardening. We had this 143
Special thank you to deck and it was sort of
Tim Biglow
Tom Daniels like a step up to the
Ray Kleiman
Andy Lyon next level. I’m coming
Gordon Quigg
& CREDITtecture, it was a Matt Rapf around the front. It’s
Lautner house. It was Morgan Runyon
pretty amazing but they  Pascal Stansfield the middle of the day 
fucked everything up. for sharing their
They fucked up our memories. and he’s got this chick

Tim Biglow just laying on the
Ray Kleiman
Matt Rapf upper deck with her legs
Morgan Runyon
access of walking over for generously sharing down so her ass was just
their old photos and
the Point. You can’t do ephemera. torqued up a little bit

that anymore. They dug And to on that step and he was 
Tracy Marshall
a hole, they dug like a for facilitating so many just fucking eating her
personal connections.
septic test pit at the out from behind. I came

back end of the cave and around the corner and

collapsed it. Them

collapsing the cave, I saw this and he was
naked and I see her with
building this big house  her ass up in the air
and he’s eating her ass
there, sums up a lot of out and he’s just
fucking going to town
that what happened when on it. I was so blown
away that people did
all the money came in. that. I had no idea.
This girl, I think she
It was this point that later died or O.D.’d. She
was sand swept, sand was probably the most
dunes would kind of blow beautiful girl—by far
over it, and the sand the most outrageously
swept ocean is what beautiful chick in the
makes the point break. world. He was just
That incredible volume fucking eating her
of sand that gets moved  asshole out. It was
in the west wind, years pretty good. The cover
of tractoring can happen of one of his albums
overnight, eight feet was him sitting on the
of sand can fill in. You deck of our house.
put a huge house there
and all the natural
beauty gets destroyed
in the process. That
happened all up and

MAKE ‘E
MAKE ‘E

NO FUCKING 10 DAYS BEFORE A FIGHT. I THINK AT THE END OF
THE DAY YOU’RE GIVING UP ONE THING FOR ANOTHER. KEEPS YOU
IN BED EARLY AND LIKE MICKEY SAYS ‘WOMEN WEAKEN LEGS’.

EM MISS
EM PAY 145

ZACHARY I first met Zachary Wohlman when I was 20 years There was a lot of violence in my house so that was
WOHLMAN old. I was angry, violent and couldn’t keep my hands the only way I knew to express myself. I had already
to myself. I would get into street fights like most spent time in institutions for the type of lifestyle I
By Scott Leon people change their shoes. It was a problem. I would was living. Boot camps, Juvie, and eventually LA
go to school and pick a fight with the biggest kid I county jail.
could, or teacher, or cop, or whoever...

People would always say to me “Hey why don’t you
go to a boxing gym or something. Channel that en-
ergy into something positive” blah blah blah. Same
shit people always say to a fucked up kid.

I had a friend tell me about Zachary so I approached
him about going to Wild Card, Freddie Roach’s
boxing club in Hollywood. Even now that I’ve been
going there for years and know everyone I still get
nervous every time I walk in there.

I met Zachary there one Monday and I thought he
was a complete douchebag. He was good looking
and he could definitely fight better than I could.
Immediately, I was like “fuck this guy.” I don’t think
he liked me very much either. But I kept seeing him
everyday after that and we became close.

We’ve been through a lot together over the years.
I’ve also photographed his career since his pro
debut. I’ve been to every one of his pro fights except
for one.

Zachary is one of my best friends and the toughest
guy I know...

How and why did you become interested
in boxing?

I was fighting a lot as a kid so I got sent away to a
military school on the border of the United States
and Mexico. When I got there, I was super nervous
about getting beat up and I didn’t want anybody
fucking with me so I lied and said I was a boxer from
Los Angeles.

They said. “Great, we have a boxing team!” and I

146 said “Oh shit.” They threw me in there and I couldn’t

fight for shit. But I was aggressive and I didn’t mind
getting punched in the face and I didn’t mind hitting
someone in the face and that was kind of where I
got started.

What influence did boxing have on your
teenage life?

The gym was a safe, healthy environment for me
growing up. As a teenager I stayed in a ton of
trouble. I liked drugs not so much grass but uppers
and downers and whatever was in your parents’
medicine cabinet when they were at work. (laughs)

I got into it with my dad. He did some really heavy
drugs so he showed me some really heavy drugs.
He and I did some crime things together. For me
drugs weren’t part of a lifestyle, they were the
lifestyle. When you’re running around in the valley
doing coke and shitty tweaker stuff, it’s like this:
you’re doing drugs and so you’re robbing people and
you’re fucked up on drugs and so you’re robbing
people again so you can get more drugs so you can
stay fucked up.

It’s just a downward-spiraling bummer.

Whenever I went into a boxing gym I wasn’t hanging
out on the street or hanging out with stupid people
so I wasn’t in trouble. A boxing gym is kind of all love
and they don’t support a shitty lifestyle. A shitty life-
style doesn’t go hand in hand with boxing, though
it seems to come with the territory with boxers and
the gym is a place to get away from that. So: in the
gym, out of trouble; out of the gym, in trouble.

KILL. FUCK. PLAY.

When did you stop fucking around and For 10 years I had dreamt about it, gone over in my It is nerve wracking. And also I put myself out there
become serious about your career? When head what it was going to be like and how it would to be exposed.
did you think, “I am gonna be a boxer”? feel. Was I gonna win? Would get knocked out? Like, let’s say people read this magazine article and
Could I even do this? The boxing ring is the ultimate go, “Fuck that guy”. Sometimes that is hard to hear.
Yesterday. truth-teller and when the bell rang and I went out Sometimes people don’t want to hear feedback on
and I kicked ass. themselves.
HAHAHAHA As far as bumps in the road, that’s life. Whether
Yeah you did. And you had you’re a pro boxer or a mechanic you’re going to
I competed when I was in a teenager. When I was Freddie Roach there. have good and bad years and good and bad hard
19 I got into a fight and got arrested for it. It wasn’t times. You have to be a worker amongst workers.
the biggest thing in the world but I decided that with Yeah! I had Freddie in the corner, I had Eric, I had Yeah, I make my living fighting. I’m not Floyd May-
all the trouble I had been into, the family history, the Paulie, I had my managers and everyone there to whether saying I’m invincible. I have taken harder
drugs and the crime I wanted to make a big change. support me who watched and helped me along losses in life than I have in the ring but life goes on,
the way, who watched me clean up my act and and I do the best that I can.
I was able to get into a halfway house and I had get it together. They say the only thing better than
nothing else except the ability to box. One of the winning your pro debut is a world title, so...We will 147
counselors there knew Freddie Roach and said, “If see what’s next.
you can clean up your act for 30 days I’ll take you to
meet him and he can take a look at you.” You got a lot of attention when you turned pro.
Everybody wanted to use you for photos, editorials,
From that point on I took boxing very seriously and lookbooks, etc. How has that affected your career?
my interest was to turn pro and that’s what Freddie
and I did. All the attention has been great, but it’s also been
humbling. A lot of exposure is a good thing, I am a
white Jewish kid and I don’t come from much. I don’t
think I realized at the time the effect all this “media
attention” was really having on me; I wanted to be a
cool guy and live a Hollywood lifestyle and of course
that comes with alcohol and girls and drugs.

It has a way of rearing its ugly head at the worst
moments, and for me that ugly head has come up
in fights. You don’t want to be thinking when you’re
trying to outbox a guy, “I wish I hadn’t been on
drugs.” It’s a shitty place to be.

I think handling that kind of exposure better comes
with experience. Now when I do it, I do it and it’s
done. I don’t take it any further than that. I do a
photo shoot, I do some press and I take it with a
grain of salt.

I understand I am being used; whether it’s for a cool
story or someone just wants to help me out, don’t
take it so much to heart. I’m not a rock star and I still
have to work another job to make a living.

That was when you were 23, how was Have you had bumps in the road since turning Describe your first loss.
your pro debut? pro either in your career or in your life?
I started realizing I might be on my way to a loss
It was on December 1st 2012 and it was amazing. I I certainly have had bumps in the road turning pro. when I started reminding myself push comes to
remember being in the restaurant before driving to There was a time when I was undefeated, but you shove this is a pro fight and on that night I couldn’t
Club Nokia downtown where I fought and I was eat- are only undefeated until you’re not anymore, and even pass a drug test.
ing my meal and I didn’t know if I was eating my last then you have to move forward with that.
meal or the meal before my wedding... It was crazy I was so ashamed of myself, embarrassed. All the
because I was 23 and started boxing when I was 14 Life has bumps in the road and everyone takes people who had sacrificed and supported me. I
so I had waited nearly 10 years for this moment. losses, but unfortunately mine go on an official kinda wished the guy would beat me to death. But
BoxRec Record. 85% of my career is all wins, but I life goes on and wounds heal for the most part. It
will always get looked at for the losses I have taken still hurts but time helps.
while the wins that I have get overlooked. That’s
okay, you have to realize that and keep it moving.

Also, I am getting hit in the face for a living. I have
those thoughts, “Is this what I want to do anymore?
Do I want to be in these training camps and working
hard and staying focused and not fucking around?”
It’s very easy to be comfortable and work a 9-5,
work a bar job, train people, whatever it is.

Do I really want to reach for the sky or reach as far
as I can and really see what I’m worth?