Lời khai hữu thệ của Đỗ Hoàng Điềm Vietnamese and English

Deposition of Viet Tan/Vietnam Reform Party Tu Nguyen vs. Dan Hoang

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1 essence, would provide assistance to relieve 1 statement. You said you made the statement to

2 pressure. I did not say -- I said "similar." So 2 alleviate confusion. And now I'm asking you how

3 that kind of action, similar to what he is doing, 3 does the statement alleviate confusion?

4 would be the type of action that provides -- in 4 A. The entire press release seek to clarify --

5 essence, helps to relieve pressure of the Vietnamese 5 sought to clarify that we are still the owner of the

6 government. 6 name Viet Tan. We operate legally in the U.S.

7 Q. Why did you say that? 7 Q. I know, but I'm talking about the specific

8 A. Because that kind of activity cause 8 phrase related to Tu Nguyen where you say Tu Nguyen

9 confusion and people inside Vietnam, our 9 and his collaborators relieved pressure on the

10 pro-democracy partners inside Vietnam, were 10 Vietnamese communists. Why did you say that about

11 confused. A number of activists -- pro-democracy 11 Mr. Tu Nguyen?

12 activists and organization inside Vietnam contacted 12 A. I did not say Mr. Tu Nguyen did that. I

13 us and asked us: So do you guys have any legal 13 said actions similar to what he is doing. That's

14 status in the U.S? Are you legally -- are you 14 what I wrote. This type of actions, similar to what

15 operating in the U.S. legally? 15 he is doing, in essence, help to alleviate pressure

16 Mr. Tu, by registering the name Viet 16 on the Vietnamese government. I did not say Mr. Tu

17 Tan, he went on -- I believe he put a publication, 17 Nguyen did this to alleviate pressure on the

18 he went online, he posted You Tube videos, claiming 18 Vietnamese government.

19 that he now owns the name Viet Tan, our organization 19 Q. Okay. Do you believe that what Mr. Tu

20 no longer owns the name. So our partners got 20 Nguyen did in registering the Viet Tan name aided or

21 confused. 21 alleviated pressure on the communist regime?

22 They contacted us and asked: Can we 22 A. I don't know why he did it. I cannot

23 still call you Viet Tan? Do you still have that 23 speculate his reason why he did it.

24 name? 24 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate on why he

25 So it caused a lot of confusion. We 25 did it. I'm asking you if you think that that

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1 were -- Viet Tan were going to be a signature on a 1 action either aided the communist regime or took

2 joint resolution statement against the Vietnamese 2 pressure off the communist regime?

3 government, joining force with 50 others or 40 other 3 A. I don't know.

4 pro-democracy groups. Our name got pulled off. The 4 Q. Okay. Earlier we were talking about the

5 organizer of that joint statement said that you guys 5 phrase "dong tien."

6 don't own the name. We can't put your name on -- we 6 A. Yes.

7 can't put your organization on this letter. So our 7 Q. And I want to direct you to Exhibits 37 and

8 name got pulled off that joint statement. 8 38.

9 So that's the confusion that was 9 A. I don't have 37 or 38 in my binder.

10 caused. And so I said that this kind of action 10 MR. STEVENSON: Ryan, these were just

11 caused confusion. 11 emailed to you during the break.

12 Q. Well, I guess what I was asking about is 12 MR. MAAS: Do you want to take a pause

13 why did you need to say that the actions that Mr. Tu 13 while we get them, take like two or three minutes?

14 took was taking pressure off of the communist 14 MR. STEVENSON: Sure.

15 regime? I don't understand how that reduces 15 MR. MAAS: I'm going to print those

16 confusion. 16 out and put you on hold.

17 A. I said this type of action caused -- in 17 (Break from 2:37 PM to 2:40 PM.)

18 essence, helped to relieve pressure on the 18 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) Mr. Do, earlier I asked

19 Vietnamese government. Now, I said this type of 19 you some questions about the phrase "dong tien." Do

20 action similar to what he is doing. 20 you remember me asking you those questions?

21 Q. Right. But how does that alleviate 21 A. Yes.

22 confusion? 22 Q. And you told me that that phrase was used

23 A. No, I didn't say alleviate confusion. I 23 by the communists to describe the incursions by The

24 said alleviate pressure on the government. 24 Front members. Do you agree with that?

25 Q. I know. I asked you why you made the 25 A. The phrases "Dong Tien 1," "Dong Tien 2,"

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1 "Dong Tien 3" were used by the Vietnamese communist 1 Q. Okay. And if we look at Exhibit 38, this

2 government to describe the trips of the incursion 2 is a photograph, looks like, of some sort of a

3 into Vietnam. That's what they used, yeah. 3 ceremony. Do you recognize this photograph?

4 Q. So are you saying that Viet Tan does not 4 A. I -- well, I was not there but I -- yeah, I

5 use that phrase? 5 kind of recognize the type of event, to be more

6 A. We don't use "Dong Tien 1," "Dong Tien 2," 6 accurate.

7 "Dong Tien 3." We never used those specific three 7 Q. Okay. What is this type of event?

8 phrases. 8 A. This is the event that we -- in Vietnamese

9 Q. But Viet Tan does use the phrase "dong 9 custom, we commemorate or remember those who have

10 tien"? 10 passed away; and this is the event that we remember

11 A. Yes, we do. 11 those who have passed away, members of the

12 Q. And it uses that phrase to commemorate the 12 organization who have passed away.

13 actions of The Front in Vietnam and the surrounding 13 Q. Okay. So the banner there in the back,

14 countries; is that correct? 14 it's got the -- kind of the light blue and I see

15 A. "Dong tien" in Vietnamese simply means 15 that white flower there which is associated with

16 moving -- going eastward, going toward the east. 16 Viet Tan. So does this appear to be a Viet

17 And we use that phrase to commemorate those members 17 Tan-sponsored event?

18 who walked their way back into Vietnam and were 18 A. Yes.

19 killed along the way. The walk from Laos to Vietnam 19 Q. And does the -- the banner in the back,

20 is going eastward. 20 does "le tuong niem" mean "anniversary"?

21 Q. So you are no longer disputing that Viet 21 A. Yeah, it means "commemoration,"

22 Tan uses the phrase "dong tien"? 22 "remembrance."

23 MR. MAAS: Mischaracterizes the 23 Q. Okay.

24 testimony. 24 A. Remember -- yeah, I would say

25 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) You can answer. 25 "remembrance." Yeah.

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1 A. I disputed the terms -- the phrases "Dong 1 Q. Okay. And then the next phrase down, "anh

2 Tien 1," "Dong Tien 2," and "Dong Tien 3." You 2 hung," does that mean "hero"?

3 never asked me about whether we have used the word 3 A. Yes.

4 "dong tien." You never did. 4 Q. And then "dong tien" means -- you said the

5 Q. Let me ask you about that now. So if you 5 literal translation is "moving eastward"?

6 take a look at Exhibit 37, it's a screenshot from a 6 A. Yes.

7 You Tube video. Do you recognize the video? 7 Q. Okay. So if I translated that entire

8 A. Yes, I do. 8 banner, it would be commemoration of the heroes of

9 Q. And would you agree with me that this is a 9 the eastern movement. Is that close enough?

10 video that was created by Viet Tan? 10 A. Yeah, close enough.

11 A. Yes. 11 Q. How would you translate it?

12 Q. And that is you at the -- at the podium in 12 A. Yeah, commemoration of those heroes -- you

13 the screenshot, correct? 13 know, of the east -- the trip going east or the

14 A. Yes. 14 eastward trip, for lack of a better word.

15 Q. And that is the seal of the Viet Tan 15 Q. And the eastward trips, that refers to the

16 organization on The Front of the podium? 16 trips that were made into Vietnam by members of The

17 A. Yes. 17 Front in the 1980s; is that correct?

18 Q. And the title of the video is "Anh Hung 18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Dong Tien - Part 6." Do you agree with that? 19 Q. And there were numerous men who died during

20 A. Yes. 20 those trips; is that correct?

21 Q. Okay. And so just to be clear, Viet Tan 21 A. Yes. That's correct.

22 who put out this video also used the phrase "dong 22 Q. And were they killed in armed conflict? Is

23 tien" in the title of this video. Would you agree 23 that how they died?

24 with that? 24 A. I don't know the exact circumstances of

25 A. Yes. 25 their -- the deaths. I don't.

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1 Q. Do you have any idea how they died? 1 A. I can tell what you it is saying, but that

2 A. I would have to speculate or guess. Okay. 2 doesn't mean it is something that belonged to us,

3 Q. Okay. Well, so this is something that Viet 3 because anybody with access to a printer can print

4 Tan celebrates annually. They commemorate these 4 this.

5 people; is that right? 5 Q. Are you disputing that the Southern

6 A. Yes. 6 California chapter of Viet Tan created what's

7 Q. And this has been going on every year since 7 depicted in the bottom left corner of Exhibit 11?

8 the 1980s, right? 8 A. I don't know. My answer has been always I

9 A. No. This started maybe about ten -- no, 9 don't know. The first time I saw this. So I don't

10 2007. Yeah. A little bit more than ten years. 10 know. Who made this, I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. So 10, 11, 12 years ago? 11 Q. Can you tell me what the phrase "gay quy"

12 A. Roughly, right. 12 means?

13 Q. So this has been going on that long and you 13 A. "Gay quy" means "fundraising."

14 don't have any idea how these heroes of "dong tien" 14 Q. Okay. Can you take a look at Exhibit

15 died? 15 No. 12?

16 A. Because there were no live witnesses to 16 A. Yes.

17 report back exactly how they died. So, I mean, some 17 Q. Now, we looked at this earlier. This is

18 of these people went and never came back. So we can 18 something that was put out by the Orange County

19 only surmise that they have died, passed away. 19 chapter of Viet Tan. Do you agree with that?

20 Q. Do you believe that they died in armed 20 A. Yes.

21 conflict? 21 Q. And you had actual knowledge of this ad or

22 A. I don't know. 22 whatever it is, right?

23 Q. Do you believe that they were killed by 23 A. Yes. I recall seeing this.

24 communist forces or agents? 24 Q. Okay. And you were a speaker at this

25 MR. MAAS: Asked and answered. 25 event, correct?

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1 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) You can answer. 1 A. Yes.

2 A. I really don't know. I really don't know. 2 Q. Okay. And then in the middle line in the

3 Q. Okay. But you don't dispute that this 3 boldest largest lettering, the phrase "gay quy" is

4 photograph in Exhibit 38 depicts a Viet Tan event, 4 also there, right?

5 do you? 5 A. Yes.

6 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. And you said that that means fundraising?

7 Q. Mr. Do, can you tell me how many members 7 A. Yes.

8 Viet Tan currently has? 8 Q. So do you agree with me that this

9 A. I decline to answer that. 9 advertisement or flier is for an event that the

10 MR. STEVENSON: Okay. Can I get a 10 Orange County chapter of Viet Tan organized for the

11 basis? 11 purpose of fundraising?

12 MR. MAAS: Privacy. 12 A. Yes.

13 MR. STEVENSON: Okay. Let's mark the 13 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Exhibit 16.

14 question. 14 A. Yes.

15 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) Okay. I want to go 15 Q. Okay. Now, this is a screenshot from a

16 back to Exhibit 11. 16 website and I don't know how to pronounce the first

17 A. Yes. 17 word. "Nguoi Viet." Did I get close?

18 Q. The bottom left, the flier advertising -- 18 A. Yeah. Close enough. I know what you

19 or I don't know if it's a flier or ticket or 19 meant.

20 whatever it is, but it's advertising a Viet Tan 20 Q. So "Nguoi Viet" is -- that's a media outlet

21 event. Would you agree with me about that? 21 from Vietnam; is that correct?

22 A. First of all, I don't recognize this 22 A. No, it's in Orange County, too.

23 particular fliers or event. So I don't know. 23 Q. Okay. But it's a Vietnamese-centric

24 Q. Well, you can read Vietnamese. Why don't 24 website. Is that true?

25 you tell me what it is? 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Would you consider it a media source, or 1 another Viet Tan fundraising event?
2 what is it? 2 A. Again, it's -- it is not the parent
3 A. It's a news -- it's a daily. It's a daily 3 organization. I believe it's one organized by the
4 in Orange County. 4 local chapter in Southern California.
5 Q. So is it considered to be fairly reliable, 5 Q. Okay. Are any of the local chapters, are
6 fairly mainstream? 6 they registered entities, or do you know?
7 A. Yeah. I would assume so. I don't know 7 A. I don't know.
8 enough about this organization. 8 Q. Do you know whether they are also
9 Q. Okay. So can you tell me what the headline 9 unincorporated associations, just like the parent?
10 there says? 10 Do you have any idea?
11 A. Yeah, the headline said Viet Tan organized 11 A. I do not know.
12 a fundraising event -- fundraising dinner or 12 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Exhibit 6.
13 luncheon, whatever it was. 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And then on the right-hand side 14 Q. Have you seen this before?
15 there is a phrase in Vietnamese that we translated 15 A. No, not this particular -- no.
16 into "300 people attended." 16 Q. Well, turn to page 7.
17 A. Yeah. Approximately 300 people. 17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Okay. Did you attend this event that this 18 Q. Do you recognize the image that appears
19 article was talking about? 19 there on page 7?
20 A. I don't recall. No, I don't think I was 20 A. The image, meaning --
21 there. 21 Q. It's a Facebook post and it looks like --
22 Q. Is the headline accurate? Was there a 22 it appears to be on Viet Tan's Facebook page.
23 Viet Tan-sponsored fundraising event? 23 A. Okay. All right. It appears so.
24 A. The headline is not accurate, because 24 Q. Do you recognize it?
25 Viet Tan, as a parent organization, we did not 25 A. Not really. I don't recognize it but --

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1 organize the event. 1 yeah, I don't recognize it.
2 Q. Okay. Which branch of Viet Tan did 2 Q. I'm sorry. Who is in charge of posting
3 organize this event? 3 things on Viet Tan's Facebook page?
4 A. I was not at this event. I don't know who 4 A. I don't know. I mean, there are a number
5 organized this event. I don't know. 5 of people who do this. So I don't know who.
6 Q. It looks like in the background of the 6 Q. Who is in charge of Viet Tan's Facebook
7 photograph, it says "Ca So Nam California." So I 7 page?
8 think that means Southern California; is that right? 8 A. What do you mean by "in charge"?
9 A. I'm trying to look at it. Yeah, that's 9 Q. Who controls access to it?
10 what it appears on the screen -- I mean, in the 10 A. Responsible for posting? Who is
11 background of that picture, yeah. 11 responsible for running? Verifying content? What
12 Q. So it looks like it was the Southern 12 do you mean?
13 Californian branch that organized this event. Would 13 Q. I think you know what I mean. Who controls
14 you agree with that? 14 access to it?
15 A. Yes. 15 A. We have a number of team members who have
16 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit 17. So this 16 the responsibility of posting items on it.
17 is another screenshot from the same website from a 17 Q. Okay.
18 different date, and that's you in the photograph; is 18 A. Yeah.
19 that right? 19 Q. Okay. So they have the password and log-in
20 A. Yes. 20 credentials to be able to open up Viet Tan's
21 Q. Okay. And it looks like from the first 21 Facebook page and post things to the page, correct?
22 line of the description below the photo is also the 22 A. Yes.
23 phrase "gay quy." 23 Q. Are you one of those people?
24 A. Uh-huh. 24 A. No, I'm not.
25 Q. So is this accurate that this is from 25 Q. Do you know who wrote the words on this

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1 post? 1 Vietnamese language, correct?
2 A. No, I don't know. The press release -- the 2 A. Yes.
3 post say it's a press release. Are you referring to 3 Q. And you've used that language your entire
4 the press release that's being posted? 4 life, correct?
5 Q. Yes, yes. This is the infamous "bi cao" 5 A. Yes.
6 press release. Who wrote it? 6 Q. And you are a bilingual person; you speak
7 A. I did. 7 both Vietnamese and English, correct?
8 Q. So you wrote the -- what is contained in 8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 this Facebook post that is a press release? 9 Q. Do you speak any other languages?
10 A. The press release, yes, that's correct. 10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Okay. All right. And so you were the 11 Q. Okay. So you used the phrase "bi cao"; and
12 person that chose to use the term "bi cao" that 12 based on your understanding of the Vietnamese
13 appears in this press release; is that correct? 13 language as a native speaker, you believe that it
14 A. Yes. That is correct. 14 means "the accused," right?
15 Q. Okay. And if you turn the page to 15 A. Yes.
16 page 8 -- 16 Q. Now, if I wanted to use the phrase "bi cao"
17 A. Yes. 17 to refer to someone who had been accused of a crime,
18 Q. Now, this is the translation by a man named 18 would I be accurately using the phrase "bi cao"?
19 Alain Gobert of your press release. 19 A. Yes, probably, yes.
20 A. The English translation? 20 Q. Okay. And what you are contending is that
21 Q. The English translation. 21 "bi cao" can also mean a person who has been accused
22 A. Okay. 22 in a civil context, correct?
23 Q. And what it says is "defendant" and then 23 A. Yes.
24 there is a parenthetical that says: "(Note: Bi Cao 24 Q. Okay. So, in other words, a defendant in a
25 in this context is referring to the defendant as a 25 civil lawsuit who has been charged with liability

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1 criminal in criminal procedure." Do you agree with 1 for a civil cause of action, you are saying that "bi
2 that translation of the term "bi cao"? 2 cao" can also mean that as well?
3 A. No. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. What do you believe that the term 4 Q. Are you familiar with the phrase "bi don"?
5 "bi cao" means? 5 A. No, not at all.
6 A. When I wrote this press release and when I 6 Q. What about "bi can"?
7 used the term "bi cao," my understanding of the term 7 A. No, not at all.
8 simply means -- in Vietnamese, means "the accused." 8 Q. Do you agree with me that in Vietnam there
9 That is my understanding of the translation from 9 are three major dialects of the Vietnamese language?
10 defendant to "bi cao," that is my understanding of 10 A. When you say "dialects," what do you mean?
11 the term "bi cao" in Vietnamese. It simply means 11 Q. I mean, dialects. I mean different ways of
12 "the accused." 12 speaking the language, even though it's in the same
13 Q. Does that mean accused like accused of a 13 language, like a subspecies.
14 crime? 14 A. Whether there are three or more, I don't
15 A. No. 15 know.
16 Q. Is it possible that the term "bi cao" could 16 Q. Are there three major dialects, one in the
17 mean accused of a crime? 17 north, one in the central, and one in the south of
18 A. No, I don't know. I mean, I can only tell 18 the country?
19 you when I use it what my understanding of it. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Were you born in Vietnam? 20 Q. Okay. So which area of the country are you
21 A. Yes, I was. 21 from?
22 Q. Okay. So you are a native speaker of the 22 A. I was born in the south but family from the
23 Vietnamese language, correct? 23 north.
24 A. Yes, that's correct. 24 Q. Are you familiar with all three major
25 Q. And you have a pretty good command of the 25 dialects?

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1 A. Somewhat. 1 but you said that the word "bi cao" means "the

2 Q. Is there any one of the dialects that you 2 accused," not "defendant."

3 are more familiar with than the other? 3 A. Right. "Bi cao" means literally in

4 A. I would say the north. 4 Vietnamese, means "the accused." If you say the

5 Q. You are more familiar with the northern 5 literal translation of the Vietnamese word "bi cao,"

6 dialect? 6 means "the accused."

7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is there a separate word for "defendant"?

8 Q. Okay. And you are saying that you don't 8 A. So when I wrote this article, I -- first of

9 know or you are not familiar with the terms "bi 9 all, I wrote it in Vietnamese; and I didn't write it

10 can," which I'm spelling B-I, space, C-A-N? You are 10 in English. So when I choose to use the term "bi

11 not familiar with that phrase? 11 cao," I simply use it in the context of "the

12 A. No. 12 accused." I did not write this in English. I wrote

13 Q. And then the other one was "bi don" and 13 the press release in Vietnamese.

14 that's B-I, space, D-O-N. You're not familiar with 14 Q. I understand.

15 that phrase either? 15 A. And when I -- so when it comes to the word

16 A. No. In fact, the first time I ever heard 16 to use, I simply chose the term "bi cao," meaning,

17 this -- that word is when -- in this lawsuit. 17 in my understanding of the word, "bi cao" means "the

18 That's the first time I have heard of that word. 18 accused."

19 Q. Okay. In the Vietnamese language, 19 Q. Okay. Is there a separate word in the
20 regardless of dialect, is there any way of 20 Vietnamese language that means "defendant"?
21 distinguishing by word a civil defendant and a 21 A. I don't know.
22 criminal defendant that you are aware of? 22 Q. Are there words in the Vietnamese language
23 A. No, I don't know. 23 that mean "civil" and "criminal"?
24 Q. Well, in the English language, we can say 24 A. After the lawsuit had become known, I did
25 "civil defendant" or "criminal defendant." So we 25 research. And that's when I -- I found the term "bi

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1 have a way of saying that in English to distinguish 1 don." That means civil -- defendant in a civil

2 between the two. Is there any way to do that in the 2 lawsuit. That's the first time I -- like I said,

3 Vietnamese language? Do you have words for civil 3 the first time I become aware of the term "bi don"

4 and criminal? 4 was through this lawsuit, and subsequent research,

5 A. I don't know. 5 that's what it means. That's what I discovered.

6 Q. Well, you know the language. You are 6 Q. Okay. So you agree "bi don" means "civil

7 saying you don't know the words for "civil" and 7 defendant"?

8 "criminal" in Vietnamese? 8 A. Yeah. That's what the language use right

9 A. Meaning -- 9 now, and that's what it is.

10 MR. MAAS: Can we get some 10 Q. Okay. So do you agree that "bi cao" is

11 clarification here? In terms of timing, right, like 11 capable of being translated as criminal defendant?

12 what he knew at the time he wrote the article or 12 A. It's possible.

13 what he subsequently researched based on this 13 Q. If you were to write this same press

14 article or based on this lawsuit? 14 release again, would you use the phrase "bi cao" or

15 MR. STEVENSON: If he wants to qualify 15 "bi don"?

16 it and say that he did not know of a way to phrase 16 A. Given hindsight from this lawsuit, then I

17 this properly back when he wrote the article but he 17 would be very careful.

18 knows it now, that's fine with me. 18 Q. Okay. That's understandable.

19 A. Well, okay. All my life the only word I 19 Okay. So I just want to clear up a

20 know for defendant is "bi cao." I never heard of 20 few things. There is no question that the Viet Tan

21 the term "bi can" or "bi don" before. So when I 21 organization published this May 2, 2018 press

22 wrote this article, when I chose the term for the 22 release that we've just been talking about; is that

23 word "defendant" in English, I chose "bi cao," which 23 correct?

24 is the only word that I know. 24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I really am, 25 Q. And the press release refers to Tu Nguyen

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1 who is the plaintiff who is named in this lawsuit; 1 MR. STEVENSON: Right. Let me -- let

2 is that correct? 2 me think of a better way of phrasing the question.

3 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) Okay. You would agree

4 Q. Okay. Now, you have agreed with me that 4 with me that if you labeled Tu Nguyen as a criminal
5 the phrase "bi cao" can be accurately translated to 5 or criminal defendant, that that would be a false
6 mean "criminal defendant." Would you agree with me 6 statement?
7 that the -- if someone is labeled as a criminal 7 A. Yes.
8 defendant, that that could have the effect of 8 Q. And restricted to, you know, this press
9 diminishing that person's reputation? 9 release, what you are discussing in this press
10 A. I would say -- I assume it's possible, yes. 10 release.
11 Q. You would agree with me that, generally 11 A. Meaning -- I'm sorry, what --
12 speaking, society looks down on people who are 12 Q. I probably didn't need to say that. I just
13 accused of crimes. Would you agree with that? 13 was clarifying that we're talking about a reference
14 A. Yes. 14 to Tu Nguyen in a press release only and no other
15 Q. And would your answer be the same if I said 15 area.
16 that society generally looks down on people who have 16 Okay. At the time that this press

17 been convicted of crimes? 17 release was published, you were aware that the

18 A. Yes. 18 California legal proceeding was not criminal in

19 Q. Would you agree with me that being accused 19 nature; is that correct?

20 or convicted of a crime could expose a person to 20 A. Yes. That's correct.

21 ridicule or contempt or embarrassment? 21 Q. And at the time that it was published, you

22 A. I don't know. It's possible, but I don't 22 knew that Mr. Nguyen was not being prosecuted for

23 know. 23 the commission of any crime; is that correct?

24 Q. Would you agree with me that being accused 24 A. I don't know. It's possible, yes. I don't

25 or convicted of a crime could affect the way that a 25 know if there is any other things concerning him. I

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1 person is viewed as far as their honesty, integrity, 1 don't know.
2 or reputation? 2 Q. Do you have the awareness of any criminal
3 A. Yeah, it's possible. 3 action or conviction or indictment of Mr. Nguyen at
4 Q. Okay. And we agreed that the California 4 all?
5 trademark lawsuit that was the subject of this May 5 A. No.
6 2nd press release was a civil matter and not a 6 Q. Okay. So you did not know of any criminal
7 criminal matter, correct? 7 accusation against Mr. Nguyen at the time this
8 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 May 2, 2018 press release was published by Viet Tan;
9 Q. Would you agree with me if the phrase "bi 9 is that correct?
10 cao" implies criminal wrongdoing, that the label "bi 10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 cao" as applied to Tu Nguyen in this instance would 11 Q. Okay. At the time that this press release

12 be false? 12 was published, you knew that the settlement

13 A. Would you say that again? Can you repeat 13 discussed in the press release had no criminal

14 it? 14 component; is that correct?

15 Q. Sure. If "bi cao" can be translated to 15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 mean "criminal defendant," then would you agree that 16 Q. And at the time that this press release was

17 that label as applied to Tu Nguyen would be false? 17 published, you knew that Mr. Tu Nguyen had not

18 A. If -- 18 admitted to any sort of criminal culpability; is

19 MR. MAAS: Are you saying that, just 19 that correct?

20 to clarify, if it was translated as "criminal," it 20 A. Yes.

21 would be false or if it could be translated as 21 Q. And at the time that the press release was

22 "criminal," it would be false? 22 published, no judge or jury, to your knowledge, had

23 MR. STEVENSON: Let me -- 23 found Mr. Tu Nguyen guilty of any crime; is that

24 MR. MAAS: Just to clarify, if it 24 correct?

25 could also mean it could be translated as civil. 25 A. Yes, that's correct.

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Deposition of Viet Tan/Vietnam Reform Party Tu Nguyen vs. Dan Hoang

Page 113 Page 115

1 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit No. 7. 1 Q. And you said you did find some errors in
2 A. Okay. 2 it. Is that true?
3 Q. So just to be clear here, we're looking at 3 A. Yes.
4 another translation of the same May 2, 2018 press 4 Q. Okay.
5 release and this translation was done by someone 5 A. Some terms I would say I would disagree
6 named Wendy Poon. Do you see that? 6 with.
7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which terms do you disagree with?
8 Q. Was this translation done at the request of 8 A. Hold on. I have to -- give me a minute. I
9 Viet Tan? 9 have to refer back to the original. Give me a
10 MR. MAAS: Excuse me to interject. I 10 second. Which exhibit was that?
11 think this was done on behalf of counsel. I don't 11 Q. It's Exhibit No. 7.
12 know if this was directed by our client or not. 12 A. 7 only had part of it. So --
13 MR. STEVENSON: Okay. Well, so it was 13 Q. Exhibit 7 should be four pages long.
14 requested by counsel for Viet Tan? 14 A. Let me see. Hold on.
15 MR. MAAS: I think it was, yes. I 15 Q. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. Yeah, it does not
16 wasn't involved in this. I think -- I'm looking at 16 contain the original Vietnamese text. You can go
17 the signature page right here; so I'm not looking at 17 back to you -- I think it would be Exhibit No. 6, if
18 an actual -- oh, behind it. I think that's correct. 18 you can find it.
19 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) Okay. Mr. Do, were you 19 A. Give me a minute here.
20 aware that -- and I don't want you to tell me 20 Q. Sure.
21 anything that your lawyers told you. I'm not asking 21 A. No. 6 is not a press release.
22 about any communications here. But what I would 22 Q. If you flip back to page 7, I think there's
23 like to know is whether or not you knew that your 23 the --
24 attorneys were requesting this translation to be 24 A. But that's only part of it.
25 done. 25 Q. Yeah.

Page 114 Page 116

1 A. Yes. 1 A. Oh, I see it here. Okay. Yeah. I think
2 Q. You were aware of that? 2 it's on page 9. Give me a minute here.
3 A. I recall being told that there would be a 3 Yeah, for example, the very first
4 translation. 4 paragraph, the term "to stop thinking to be" --
5 Q. Okay. Did you have any hand in selecting 5 that's totally a poor translation of the original
6 who the translator was going to be? 6 text.
7 A. No. 7 And then bullet point -- or item
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge of TransPerfect 8 No. 1, "deceitful acts," that's another wrong
9 or Wendy Poon? 9 translation of the original text. Those are the two
10 A. No. 10 that jump out at me.
11 Q. Before today have you seen this 11 Q. Okay.
12 translation? 12 A. That really jumped out.
13 A. I just saw it the first time yesterday. 13 Q. So would you say that the other translation
14 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to review it? 14 that we looked at is in Exhibit 6, page 8, that
15 A. Yes, I did, briefly. Yes, I did. 15 instead of "to stop thinking to be from," would you
16 Q. Okay. Was there anything in it -- and I 16 agree that the translation in Exhibit 6 "to cease
17 understand that you said you only reviewed it 17 unlawful use of" is a better translation of the
18 briefly but was there anything in it that jumped out 18 original text?
19 at you as being incorrect? 19 A. No. That's also a bad translation of the
20 A. Other than the fact that it was not a very 20 original text. The original text said that he
21 good translation, yeah, there were quite a few terms 21 agreed to stop mischaracterizing himself as Viet Tan
22 I think would be incorrect. 22 or -- yeah. The word "mao nhan" means "characterize
23 Q. Okay. So you would characterize this 23 yourself" or "impersonate yourself" or "describe
24 translation as not a very good translation? 24 yourself." Yeah.
25 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Okay. And then --

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Deposition of Viet Tan/Vietnam Reform Party Tu Nguyen vs. Dan Hoang

Page 117 Page 119

1 A. Yeah, it's not "unlawful." 1 involved in the activities of The Front?

2 Q. Okay. And then the other phrase "deceitful 2 A. I would assume so. At least some of them

3 acts" in No. 1, the other translation says -- 3 were.

4 A. "Misunderstanding"? 4 Q. Okay.

5 Q. Yes. Do you -- 5 A. I don't know all of the writers or

6 A. I think that would be more accurate. 6 contributors. That's why I said I don't know. Some

7 Q. Okay. Now, you did not note the phrase 7 of them were.

8 "the accused" is one of the issues that you had with 8 Q. Yes, but you are aware that some of the

9 Ms. Poon's translation. Do you agree with that part 9 contributors were members of The Front, correct?

10 of her translation of the phrase "bi cao"? 10 A. Yes.

11 A. Let me go back, because the accused -- 11 Q. And were some of these members who were --

12 yeah, yeah. 12 the book is recounting some of their experiences

13 Q. So you agree -- 13 from what I understand. Would you agree with that?

14 A. And that's my -- my main reason why I chose 14 A. Yes, I -- yes, some. Not all but some,

15 the word "bi cao" because that is my understanding, 15 yes.

16 too. It means "the accused." 16 Q. So these were people who actually

17 MR. STEVENSON: Okay. I need a few 17 experienced the activities of The Front. Would you

18 minutes to kind of go over my notes and talk to my 18 agree with that, some of them?

19 client and make sure that we don't have any other 19 A. Yes, mostly would be the activities here,

20 questions. So can we take like a five-minute break? 20 not overseas, not in like -- like back in Vietnam or

21 MR. MAAS: You want to -- how do you 21 in Laos. Mostly here, overseas.

22 want to do it? Do you want to put us on hold and 22 Q. But some of the material contained in this

23 we'll just come back, or do you want to call back in 23 book is written by people when were engaged in the

24 five or ten minutes or what do you want to do? 24 front activities overseas on the Indochina

25 MR. STEVENSON: Let's do ten minutes, 25 Peninsula. Would you agree with that?

Page 118 Page 120

1 and why don't I call you back? 1 A. Without having the actual publication in

2 MR. MAAS: That's fine. 2 front of me, it's hard for me to -- because I read

3 MR. STEVENSON: I'll call you back in 3 it. I did read it -- I read it, but it's quite some

4 ten minutes. 4 time ago. So I don't really remember all the

5 (Break from 3:22 PM to 3:41 PM.) 5 writers and the details in the book.

6 Q. (BY MR. STEVENSON) Okay. We're back on 6 Q. Well, you actually wrote something on the

7 the record after a break. 7 Viet Tan website about this book. Do you recall

8 Mr. Do, thank you today for being 8 doing that?

9 candid with me and answering all my questions. I 9 A. Yes, I recall I did contribute. I believe

10 know this is not easy. I just have a very few more, 10 I did contribute an article, I think. Yeah.

11 which I will tell you is probably the biggest lie 11 Q. Okay. And earlier we talked about how --

12 that's ever told by lawyers. So just take that for 12 what the actual activities of The Front were and you

13 what it's worth. 13 told me that The Front was not engaged in any

14 I'm going to ask you about a book. 14 military operations other than defensive. Is that a

15 The title of the book is "Tren Duong Dong Tien." 15 fair characterization of your testimony?

16 Are you familiar with this book? 16 A. Yes.

17 A. By the title, yes. 17 Q. Okay. Would you agree with --

18 Q. Okay. Have you read this book yourself? 18 A. We're not a military organization, to be

19 A. Yes, I have. 19 very exact.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know who the author of the 20 Q. When you say "we," are you talking about

21 book is? 21 The Front or are you talking about Viet Tan?

22 A. It is a collective number of writers. So 22 A. I said -- I'm talking about The Front. I'm

23 there -- I believe there is -- it is a publication 23 sorry.

24 with a number of people contributed. 24 Q. Okay.

25 Q. And were these contributors people who were 25 A. Was not a military organization.

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Deposition of Viet Tan/Vietnam Reform Party Tu Nguyen vs. Dan Hoang

Page 121 Page 123

1 Q. Okay. Well, in this book that you wrote a 1 the terminology that was used in your press release?

2 report on, one of the people -- one of the authors 2 A. After the lawsuit, I went back and did my

3 describes The Front members who were there as khang 3 research to find out more about the different terms,

4 chien quan, which I understand is translated as 4 especially in particular the difference between "bi

5 "resistance fighter." 5 cao" and "bi don." Like I said, this lawsuit was

6 First of all, do you agree with my 6 the first time I became aware of the term "bi don."

7 translation of that phrase? 7 So I look it up and what I found was that I believe

8 A. Yes. Uh-huh. I would say it's a fair -- 8 around either 2011 or 2014, I'm not sure of the

9 fair translation. Yes. 9 exact year, the Vietnamese government revised their

10 Q. And do you recall reading in this book 10 legal code; and that's when they differentiate more

11 about The Front khang chien quan, the resistance 11 clearly, more distinctly, between "bi cao" as being

12 fighters? 12 a criminal defendant and "bi don" being a civil

13 A. No, I don't. 13 defendant. So this is what I found out after the

14 Q. Do you know the name Phan Thu Ba? 14 lawsuit. I researched and I realized that this is

15 A. Can you repeat that? Or can you spell it? 15 what is being used in Vietnam nowadays, at least

16 Q. Yeah. The name is P-H-A-N, T-H-U, B-A. 16 since 2011 or 2014 when the Vietnamese current

17 A. No, I don't recognize this individual. 17 government revised the legal code.

18 Q. Okay. You don't recognize that name to be 18 As I said, before this lawsuit I was

19 one of the authors of the book "Tren Duong Dong 19 not even aware of the term "bi don" or understood

20 Tien"? 20 what it means.

21 A. No, I don't. I don't recognize his name or 21 MR. MAAS: Okay. No further

22 recall this individual. 22 questions.

23 Q. Okay. If I wanted to know what the 23 MR. STEVENSON: Okay. We have no

24 activities of The Front were in and around Vietnam 24 further questions either. We're going off the

25 in the early 80s, do you think that this book would 25 record.

Page 122 Page 124

1 be a good place for me to go and read about that? 1 THE REPORTER: Mr. Mass, do you want
2 A. Again, without looking at -- going back 2 the order the transcript?
3 to -- referring back to the publication or the book, 3 MR. MAAS: I think we do, but can I
4 I really don't know. I would say yes. It was 4 get a phone number for you and I'll call back in a
5 written by members of -- some of the writers were 5 little bit.
6 members of The Front and they would be recounting 6 THE REPORTER: Yes. It's (713)
7 their experience during that time. 7 861-8004.
8 Q. So you would say -- I'm sorry. Go ahead, 8 MR. MAAS: And your name again?
9 if you weren't finished I'm sorry. 9 THE REPORTER: My name is Lea Sturm.
10 A. I said it would be possible for you, yeah, 10 (Deposition concluded at 3:52 PM.)
11 for someone to learn more about our activities 11 [Signature waived pursuant to FRCP 30(e)(1).]
12 during the early years and this book would probably
13 be one source. 12
14 Q. Okay. Okay. Again, Mr. Do, I don't have
15 any other questions. Thank you again for your time 13
16 today. I appreciate it.
17 A. All right. You are welcome. 14
18 MR. STEVENSON: Ryan, are you guys
19 going to ask questions or reserve? 15
20 MR. MAAS: I don't have any questions.
21 Well, yeah, I mean, I will ask a few questions. 16
22 MR. STEVENSON: Go right ahead.
23 EXAMINATION 17
24 QUESTIONS BY MR. MAAS:
25 Q. What did you learn after this lawsuit about 18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Page 125

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2
TU NGUYEN, )
3 Plaintiff, )
)
4 v. ) Civil Action No. 4:2017CV2060
)
5 DAN HOANG, et al., )
Defendants. )
6 *******************
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
7 TELEPHONIC ORAL 30(b)(6)DEPOSITION OF
VIET TAN/VIETNAM REFORM PARTY
8 DIEM HOANG DO
JANUARY 25, 2019
9 *******************

10 I, Lea Abbott Sturm, Certified Court

11 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby

12 certify to the following:

13 That the witness, DIEM HOANG DO, was sworn

14 by a Notary Public present with the Deponent, and

15 that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true

16 record of the testimony given by the witness;

17 I further certify that pursuant to FRCP

18 Rule 30(e)(1) that the signature of the deponent:

19 ________ was requested by the deponent or a

20 party before the completion of the deposition and is

21 to be returned within 30 days from the date of

22 receipt of the transcript. If returned, the

23 attached changes and Signature page contains any

24 changes and the reasons therefor;

25 ___X____ was not requested by the deponent

Page 126

1 or a party before the completion of the deposition.
2 I further certify that I am neither counsel
3 for, nor related to, nor employed by any of the
4 parties or attorneys to the action in which this
5 proceeding was taken. Further, I am not a relative
6 or employee of any attorney of record in this cause,
7 nor am I financially or otherwise interested in the
8 outcome of the action.
9 Subscribed and sworn to on this the ______
10 day of _________, 2019.

11

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