EMPIRE AUG 2021

E There’s never before been a big-budget spectacular
pitting a bunch of miscreants against a giant starfish.

Well, there is now. James Gunn and his core team
of cast and crew talk us through how they willed

THE SUICIDE SQUAD onto the big screen

WORDS DAN JOLIN

AUGUST 2021 49

James Gunn

DOESN’T
DO

NORMAL.

He made a sci-fi superhero film starring a talking raccoon and
a living tree, for crying out loud. But with The Suicide Squad he’s
outdone himself. It’s his bloody tribute to war flicks of yore, like
The Dirty Dozen and Kelly’s Heroes. Only it features a dude in
a polka-dot costume. And a walking shark. And a colossal,
monstrous starfish. Named Starro. What the what?

A not-really-sequel to a not-much-loved original, The Suicide
Squad is a messed-up movie on a mission — just like its motley
assortment of antagonistic protagonists. They are set loose on
a coup-ridden South American island named Corto Maltese to lay
waste to an ancient Nazi fortress-laboratory. And the movie itself?
“I just wanted to make it as fun as possible,” Gunn tells Empire.
“There is emotional stuff in there, but I wanted it first and foremost
to be an entertaining ride. So that what-the-fuck-ness of it just
comes out of, you know, what I think is entertaining.”

Talking to Gunn and a dozen of his collaborators, it is clearer
than ever that what he finds entertaining is just damn weird. And
wild. And massively ambitious — making this the most epically
unhinged shoot any of them had done...

THE CRAZY LINE-UP character in a lot of ways is the centre of it. Though casting him was Don’t leave her
a rare situation. I knew I wanted to work with Idris. I’ve loved him hanging: Margot
James Gunn (writer-director): Warner Bros. came to me not since he was Stringer Bell on The Wire. And I knew who that lead Robbie as the
long after I was fired from Guardians Vol. 3 [temporarily, for character was, in terms of his characteristics, and the über-masculinity ever-popular
a social-media furore over some old, offensive tweets] and offered he has that’s confronted by these other forces, most of them feminine. Harley Quinn.
me pretty much the entire DC catalogue. They were incredibly But I didn’t know what superhero I was gonna use.
surprised that I didn’t wanna do Superman or Green Lantern. Idris Elba (Bloodsport): James and I made it clear we weren’t
I wanted to do Suicide Squad. I thought I could do something reprising Will Smith’s Deadshot. And it wasn’t a replacement, either.
completely outlandish that had never been seen before, with There was lots of discussion around that. But I was comfortable with
a sad-sack group of second-rate supervillains forced to fight for the fact that James didn’t exactly know yet what it was. We just really
something they probably don’t believe in. wanted to work with each other and I trusted that James had a vision.
Peter Safran (producer): James had a clean slate, but there were Gunn: I actually called [then DC Entertainment CCO] Geoff Johns
clearly some interesting elements in the first film and he was able and said, “Who are the guys that shoot guns?” Because I already had
to cherry-pick those. I mean, who doesn’t love Margot Robbie as
Harley Quinn?
Margot Robbie (Harley Quinn): I was curious to see what James’
take on Harley was. She’s a little steadier on her feet in this, and
she’s in mission mode. This is her version of showing up to work,
I think. Yes, she’s back in Belle Reve [Prison] and has to do this
mission to cut time off her sentence, but I think Harley looks at it
like a fun outing. She doesn’t mind getting that call from Amanda
Waller, because something crazy happens every time she does, and
she gets thrown into this group of new people to pick at and play with.
Gunn: A lot of it was id on my part, because I was just kind of
throwing these characters in there. But I do think Idris Elba’s

50 AUGUST 2021

Peacemaker, and I knew these two were gonna have the same abilities all so much better than I am, and in turn made me better. Margot,
and have a toxic-masculinity fight. So eventually I came to Bloodsport. Idris, even the template of King Shark, Steve Agee. Everyone made
Elba: He is a mercenary who’s incredibly skilled at fighting and me a better performer.
shooting and killing, basically. It was so much fun working with Steve Agee (on-set King Shark): King Shark is just a big dope.
John Cena as Peacemaker. He’s a genius improviser, so it was fun He’s really what you would imagine a shark to be if it could walk:
to go back and forth with him and build that natural rivalry. driven by his baser instincts.
John Cena (Peacemaker): The first day we were filming, I was Gunn: King Shark’s fun to work with because his emotional ability
trying to be very much like Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket: very is incredibly limited. He’s a fish, at the end of the day. I wrote him
angular, very condescending, disciplined by destruction. But James thinking of Sly [Stallone, for the voice], who I’ve known for a while
said, “Stop, that’s not who this guy is. He’s like a douchey, bro-ey and like a lot as a guy. But I got talked out of going to him, and
Captain America.” And that was the start of what Peacemaker is. strangely enough we hired two different voice actors who just weren’t
I was given a lot of freedom to be idiotic, and I think that’s where right. I was like, “Man, does the character just suck?” I was really
a lot of the jokes come from. But everybody on set, man. They were looking for that Vin Diesel Groot moment. So finally I called up Sly U

AUGUST 2021 51

personally and said, “I created this character who is a cannibalistic,
incredibly dumb human-shark hybrid, and I wrote it for you…”
Peter Safran: The immediate answer was yes. It was the easiest
and fastest yes I’ve ever heard. I think Stallone loved how integral
a role King Shark plays in the movie, and it didn’t hurt that he’s
clearly a big fan favourite. In fact, I’m wearing a King Shark T-shirt
today, as we speak.
Daniela Melchior (Ratcatcher 2): My character is a typical
millennial. Like me, she’s from Portugal. She’s lazy and has bad
posture. She doesn’t know how to run, how to shoot someone, how
to kick somebody’s ass. But she has the biggest heart, I think, of
everyone in the Squad. She’s always trying to find some love in the
other members. And she can control rats. You might not think she’s
strong enough to be in the Suicide Squad, but by the end of the
movie you will understand why.
Peter Capaldi (The Thinker): I’m an evil genius! I’ve always
wanted to play an evil genius. The Thinker is very smart, very
manipulative and wicked, and also rather decadent.
Agee: James does a really good job of taking these characters that
nobody has heard of — Polka Dot Man?! — and making them so
layered and complex and tragic that people are gonna love them.
David Dastmalchian (Polka Dot Man): If you Google Polka Dot
Man, I think he comes up as DC’s worst villain of all time. But here his
power is a curse. It’s something he’s endured. I myself have vitiligo;
I have splotches of no pigment all over my body, and I was teased
a lot about it as a kid. So as I started reading and learning about
Polka Dot Man, I felt all these connections between us. There are
no throwaway characters in James’ films. He doesn’t create fodder.

THE CRAZY VISUALS

Gunn: I liked the idea of these disparate aesthetics, as if you’re
bringing in each of these characters from a different movie or TV
show. So Peacemaker is from a 1970s TV show; Bloodsport is more
of a modern, scary, grimdark character; Ratcatcher 2 is from some
Saw horror film; Javelin [Flula Borg] looks ridiculous; Savant
[Michael Rooker] is kind of cool, but also kind of Def Leppard in the
wrong ways; and Harley is Harley! And they’re thrown together in
this sort of natural, real world that we present with Corto Maltese,
which is very grounded.
Robbie: It was evident that James was going for this kind of ’70s
war-film kind of vibe, which is absolutely one of my favourite
genres of film.
Judianna Makovsky (costume designer): I decided to start with
the hardest costume first: Polka Dot Man. How do you do that and
not make it idiotic? So I based it on a real garment. It’s not tights
or a jumpsuit, it’s a flight suit, which I think helped make the
character more accessible.
Gunn: About a week later, I walked into Judianna’s office and I look
at this computer and there’s this drawing of Polka Dot Man that’s
exactly how he looks in the movie today. I’m like, “Well, I guess this
movie isn’t gonna be as hard to design as I thought it was!”
Cena: I remember seeing Peacemaker’s helmet, and James had
a devious look in his eye, thinking I would hate it. And I fucking
loved it. It’s awesome.
Makovsky: We did so many variations of the helmet from the
comic — which, as Bloodsport says in the trailer, really does look
like a toilet seat — until we had something you could probably put
on. We thought John would only wear it a couple of times in the
movie, but he wanted to wear it all the time!
Cena: I am not afraid of making fun of myself, and I’m not afraid
of being embarrassed. If you’re invested in what you do, it adds to
the absurdity.
Melchior: I think I have the coolest costume, with all its belts and
pockets and things. I love the fact that it’s not sexy. That’s really cool
for an actress in her first American role. I’m not showing anything!

52 AUGUST 2021

Makovsky: Bloodsport’s was the hardest costume to do, because emotion in his eyes. Clockwise from above
we weren’t quite sure what his powers were in the beginning. Capaldi: Working with talking sharks and giant starfish? Once The formidable
Gunn: In the comics, he reaches into a secret war chest in another you’ve been Doctor Who, that’s just a day in the office. Although Bloodsport (Idris Elba)
dimension and can pull out any weapon he wants. I thought, “How hopefully sometimes they’re gonna be more convincing! and Peacemaker (John
can I adapt that to the screen in a way that’s cool?” So our cinematic Elba: There was a running joke about the starfish. I was like, Cena); Rick Flag (Joel
equivalent of that is this suit which has all these different pieces to “Really? Couldn’t it have been any other animal? Why a starfish?” Kinnaman) with Gregg
it that transform into different weapons. And James always had this cheeky glint in his eye. Allman lookey-likey
Makovksy: James wanted everything practical. There’s not a lot of Gunn: I thought Starro the Conqueror would be a perfect Savant (Michael
CG. He asked me for something where pieces of the costume come antagonist for the Suicide Squad, because I loved him as a kid. He’s Rooker); Tense times
out and turn into his weapons. I thought, “I don’t even know how to generally a Justice League antagonist, so I like the idea that we’re for Ratcatcher 2
do that.” It was a serious challenge, but it was very collaborative letting the Suicide Squad fight an antagonist that was normally (Daniela Melchior), King
with props, figuring out how those things worked. meant for the ‘big guys’. I was very scared of him, yet he’s also Shark, Peacemaker,
Kelvin McIlwain (visual-effects supervisor): I come from this completely ridiculous. Polka Dot Man (David
background where I really do believe in doing things physically McIlwain: Starro was a unique challenge. He’s this bright-pink Dastmalchian),
wherever possible, trying to capture it with the camera. But one character with a blue back and a giant eye in the middle. Even Bloodsport and
of the big challenges was King Shark. James really wanted people before we started shooting, we worked with Weta Digital to figure Amanda Waller
to believe this character, and there’s so many ways you can take out, how does this thing walk? It’s such a bizarre-looking creature. (VIola Davis).
a shark and join it with a human body and make it go wrong. It But everything’s always grounded in reality. We went to Colón,
took a lot of effort and time tweaking him so you could find some Panama, to shoot this massive third-act sequence. It was a really U

AUGUST 2021 53

difficult place to shoot, but we scanned over 500 buildings there Safran: Our genius special-effects guy is Dan Sudick, who’s done Top to bottom:
and built all of that into our CG work. all the Marvel movies. He has said on this movie there are more T.D.K. (Nathan
Beth Mickle (production designer): We shot a lot of exteriors special effects than all the Marvel movies combined. Fillion), Blackguard
in Panama for Corto Maltese, but almost everything else we built Charles Roven (producer): There is a tremendous amount (Pete Davidson)
at Pinewood Studios in Atlanta. Including a giant backlot set, of destruction. and Weasel (Sean
which is the exterior of [Nazi-era prison laboratory] Jotunheim… Robbie: It was my first day on set and I got my moment to run Gunn) buckle up;
And a beach. across the beach while bombs and things were exploding all around Starfish mayhem!;
Capaldi: One day, the other actors said, “We’re off to the beach me. My adrenaline was pumping because it was real pyrotechnics. Elba with Peter
now!” I thought, “Oh, that’s nice. I didn’t know there was a beach in Real gunpowder. Real explosions. I got to have my war-film Capaldi’s The
Atlanta.” I mentioned it to someone and they said, “No. They’ve moment that I feel like girls never get. Thinker; An
built a beach.” I said, “What?” Dastmalchian: I felt like I was in the midst of Saving Private Ryan evil genius.
Safran: It was the largest construction budget that Warner meets The Avengers. This has been the most emotionally and
Bros. has ever approved. We built the interiors of the palace. We physically challenging thing I’ve done. And it’s also one of the most
built the jungles. And Beth’s team built a 260-foot-wide beach on joyful experiences I’ve had so far.
the backlot. Elba: The Jotunheim sequence was incredibly complex, with
Gunn: It’s crazy. We had an ocean, with working waves. It was an tilting stages and huge waterworks. It looks amazing, especially
incredibly pleasant place to be, because it was like being on a real when you know there’s not a lot of CGI in those moments.
beach, but without having to worry about the generators and the McIlwain: An aquarium bursts above a cubicle office, so Dan
waves and changing tides. Sudick rigged these massive tanks and recirculation hoses above it.
Robbie: I remember when we tried to figure out scheduling, they In a matter of seconds we could flood that entire set, and we did it
were like, “We’ve got to start on this date, because the palm trees multiple times. It was a huge engineering feat.
will die if it gets too cold in Atlanta.” I was like, “Palm trees? How Agee: Our second-unit director is Guy Norris, who did Mad Max:
many palm trees are they bringing in?” Fury Road. I got to go out to the backlot and watch him blowing up
cars and buildings on the Jotunheim set — going full Mad Max,
THE CRAZY ACTION while I waited for my next scene.
Gunn: I’ve known Guy for 20 years, because I worked with him on
Makvosky: The first day of the shoot was on the beach, with the first Scooby-Doo movie and he’s a stunt coordinator that I saw
explosions. I thought, “This is really like an old-fashioned movie, completely eye to eye with. There is an uncomfortable action
where everything is practical. We’re squibbing people, there’s mindset that’s happened in recent big movies where it just ends up
blood. We don’t do that much anymore!” being an all-out brawl at the end and it just goes on, with no real

54 AUGUST 2021

movement to it. But Guy really understands the THE NOT-IN-SUICIDE-SQUAD
storytelling aspects of action. PLAYLIST
Guy Norris (second unit director/
supervising stunt coordinator): Every JUST FOR EMPIRE, JAMES GUNN SHARES TEN
piece of action has its own structure; a three- TUNES WHICH ALMOST MADE IT INTO THE FILM
act structure, like the script itself. There’s
a sequence with Harley where she progresses 1.‘RUSTY CAGE’ – JOHNNY CASH
through these different rooms, and each room
tells a different story. “When we were almost done with the movie we
Gunn: Harley beating up those guards was my heard that Guy Ritchie’s Wrath Of Man, which
favourite action sequence. I just love Margot. was coming out a couple of months before us,
A lot of actors blow off stunt rehearsals and fight was using ‘Folsom Prison Blues’. So we almost
rehearsals, but she worked so hard. used this — then I decided I just like ‘FPB’ better
Norris: Margot’s amazing. She’s an absolute for the scene; I’ll let the chips fall where they may.”
athlete. One of my mantras is: I want to film the
actor from the front rather than the double from 2. ‘WHAT A WAY TO DIE’ – THE PLEASURE SEEKERS
the back. And Margot threw herself into it.
Robbie: I knew James was so excited about this “I love this old garage-rock tune, which was
sequence, so I didn’t want to let him down. But it briefly considered for the opening credits instead
was so fun to shoot. I remember watching it back of ‘People Who Died’ by The Jim Carroll Band.”
for the first time. I was like, “Holy shit, that is one
of the coolest sequences I’ll ever do in my life.” 3. ‘DRAW THE LINE’ – AEROSMITH

THE CRAZY DIRECTOR “This played over the Osprey flying over the ocean
and dropping the squad members into the water
Cena: When people ask me, “Hey, what can we tell
fans about The Suicide Squad?” the best I can do for a long time. It worked great, but, after our
is just say, “They’re not ready to see it. They need co-producer Simon Hatt suggested we could use
it in their life. But they’re just not ready to see it.”
Norris: In James’ world, there’s no normal. Or a bit more tension in the scene, I thought John
rather, it soon becomes normal to find yourself Murphy’s score might fulfill our needs better. And
talking about crazy, outrageous characters like it does! But I still miss this, probably my favourite
Starro or King Shark!
Safran: He’s said this was the most fun he’s Aerosmith track (and I love a lot of them).”
ever had making a movie, and that joy bled
into the entire production. It was a joyful 4. ‘SOMOS SUR’ – ANATIJOUX FEAT. SHADIA MANSOUR
experience, because it’s really an unedited
version of James Gunn. “Ana Tijoux is a Chilean-French singer I adore,
Roven: He has an amazing vibe that he gives off. and I almost used this song when the gang pulls
He’s having a lot of fun when he’s shooting. up outside the Corto Maltesian brothel. But the
Melchior: He was prepared every day. I felt like scene was shortened enough in editing that we
I could trust him, because he was ready to shoot just used the K Flay song we used inside, ‘Can’t
this months before. We are his toys, you know?
Robbie: James runs a tight ship, but there’s Sleep’ — but starting it outside.”
music and you’re laughing and you’re having
fun. It’s so nice being on set with someone who’s 5. ‘THE HUMAN PARADOX’ – DYNAZTY
having a good time being there. 6. ‘RESISTIRÉ’ RESISTIRÉ’ – MÉXICO
Elba: He’s got a wicked sense of humour. He’ll sit
at his chair with a microphone and talk back to the “These were both great songs we had in early
actors, just encouraging us to go further with the improvisation. His cuts before my friend Grandson wrote his
imagination’s really out there, but as a director he’s very precise. He’s
got terabytes of images in his head, of how he wants to see it done. original classic ‘Rain’ for the same scene. That
Gunn: On The Suicide Squad I could just go anywhere I wanted said, I’m using the Dynazty song — one of my
to go. I mean, Marvel really lets me have a lot of freedom, but I’m
still making a PG-13 movie. So I just loved the whole no-holds- favourite metal tunes — in a future project.”
barred approach of being able to make this enormous movie —
with no rules! 7. ‘DEATH ON TWO LEGS’ – QUEEN
Dastmalchian: When I watch James at the monitor and I see his
face light up when he gets the thing he’s aiming for, my heart fills “This was briefly considered for the big Harley
with joy. And there’s no-one better to tell this story. That’s why I’m Quinn action sequence back in the script stage
so excited to be part of his vision of the Suicide Squad, because it’s so (yes, I write all of the songs into the script), before
dark, it’s so dramatic, it’s so funny, it’s so big. It’s all of those things I came up with the final choice for the scene.”
on the hundredth scale. It’s James.
8. ‘A PERFECT MIRACLE’ – SPIRITUALIZED
THE SUICIDE SQUAD IS IN CINEMAS FROM 30 JULY
“Part of the finale was originally this wonderful
song by this incredible band — sadly, it just didn’t

work that well. Another song I’d like to use on
screen someday... There are too many to count!”

9. ‘SOMETIMES’ – KERO KERO BONITO
10. ‘EL PUEBLO UNIDO JAMAS SERA VENCIDO’

– INTI-ILLIMANI

“These were both considered for the end credits.”

TO LISTEN TO THE PLAYLIST IN FULL,
GO TO EMPIREONLINE.COM/JAMESGUNNPLAYLIST/

AUGUST 2021 55

After a decade-and-a-half of THE
whipping up widescreen carnage,
James Gunn has learned a few OF
THE
things about filmmaking. He
shares his seven key lessons

WORDS DAN JOLIN

56 AUGUST 2021

AT THE TENDER age of 12, James Gunn
started making movies. Down in his basement
or in the woods near his home, with an 8mm
camera and a cast typically comprising his
four younger brothers. Today, four decades
on, he’s just completed The Suicide Squad,
his third big-budget superhero movie, and
his fifth film since making his directorial
debut 15 years ago, with the gruey, screwy
sci-fi-horror-comedy Slither. So it comes as
something of a surprise when Gunn announces
to Empire that, while making The Suicide
Squad, he felt, for the first time in his life, like
a real director.

“For the first time I could walk on set and
go, ‘Okay, I think I have enough information
now that I can actually do a good job,’” he says.
Partly, he explains, this is because as “a kid from
Manchester, Missouri”, it’s taken him ages to
get over the sheer novelty of walking onto sets,
moving cameras and meeting movie stars. But it
is also because, when it comes to filmmaking —
he writes all the scripts he directs, and produces
movies too — “there is so much to learn.”

Gunn is more than happy to dispel
the “bullshit mystique” that surrounds his
craft and take us through the big filmmaking
life-lessons he’s learned, from his home-
brewed childhood epics to his mega-budget
blockbusters.

DON’T CROSS THE LINE

As a youngster, Gunn feasted on movie
magazines: Fangoria, Starlog and especially
Cinemagic, which he says was “a pure delight
from start to finish”. From these he learned you
could create gore with Karo syrup and tissue
paper, or a raygun-blast by scratching the 8mm
film itself. But above all, Cinemagic taught him
not to cross the line. And not in the sense you
might expect.
“Crossing the line is jumping from one side
of the line in a room to the other. If you do that,
it causes disorientation in the human head,” he
explains. So if you cut from a shot of someone
walking left-to-right to a shot of them from the
other side, they’ll look like they’ve suddenly
switched to walking right-to-left. “It’s one of
the things you learn first when you’re reading
about the basics of filmmaking, and I took it to
heart more than a lot of other people. I’ve always
maintained that sense of geography and space
in a real, strict, fundamentalist way — more than
most other filmmakers today.”

LISTEN TO THE AUDIENCE

In 1995, Gunn joined Troma Entertainment

in New York — the shock-schlocky, B-movie

outfit best known for The Toxic Avenger. Under

the mentorship of Troma president Lloyd

Kaufman (who’s cameoed in several of Gunn’s

films), he received his soup-to-nuts training in

practical filmmaking and wrote his first movie

script, the Shakespeare-regurgitating Tromeo

And Juliet. But the biggest lesson Gunn learned

during his Troma years didn’t come until U

Tromeo And Juliet’s test screening. Yes,

AUGUST 2021 57

you read that right: test screening. DIRECTING IS YOUR FINAL SCRIPT DRAFT screenwriting. “It is simply, for me, a futile Alamy, Allstar, Capital Pictures
“People don’t imagine that Troma movies exercise to write a screenplay and watch it
When he moved to Hollywood and started made by someone else. To truly tell the story,
are test-screened, but they are,” laughs Gunn. writing scripts at the turn of the millennium you have to direct the script. Otherwise it’s just
“And I learned more about filmmaking in — among them Scooby-Doo and Dawn Of The frustrating.” Some of the movies from that period
those two hours than most of the rest of my Dead — Gunn had to mentally readjust from he likes. Others, not so much. Either way, they
life combined.” Essentially, he says, “it taught the “incredibly harsh” New York indie scene to were never his. “I was just another cog in the
me everything I needed to know about my the “kinder” vibe of LA. “I had to let go of my wheel. It was just something I did merely so
relationship to an audience.” He observed what ego,” he says. I could direct.”
worked well and what didn’t, and noted that Even so, letting go came with a cost. As the
a lot of what he personally thought worked best studio notes kept arriving for Scooby-Doo, he DON’T BE AFRAID TO TAKE A STAND
didn’t land so well as he’d expected. slid from loving his work to not really caring
anymore. “I got tireder and tireder, and I kept “I was happy with Slither,” says Gunn
“I am off-putting and abrasive sometimes,” getting other jobs, so by the end I wasn’t worried of his feature-directing debut, which
he admits, “and when I did Tromeo And Juliet about it being good or anything,” he says. “Being starred future Gunn regulars Nathan Fillion
I didn’t know the difference between eccentric a screenwriter, you have to do the best you and Michael Rooker. “But it wasn’t testing great.”
things that were entertaining and fun, and possibly can to make yourself happy at the same The studio, Universal, called him up and
eccentric things that just fucked people up and time as making the studio happy. And that is informed him that, though they loved the
made them feel weird. So since then I have tried, a difficult thing to do.” movie, they didn’t feel it should be screened to
for the most part, to stay within the stream of the critics. Gunn was winded by the news. “Back
stuff that’s a little bit more inviting.” Gunn realised he’d never be happy just

58 AUGUST 2021

Clockwise from far ALWAYS BE FULLY INVESTED ANIMAL CRACKERS
left: James Gunn
with cast, crew and For a time, it looked like that next film would be GUNN REVEALS HIS FIVE FAVOURITE
raccoon on the set Pets: a big-budget sci-fi comedy in which Ben CINEMATIC BEASTS
of Guardians Of The Stiller is abducted by giant aliens and kept as a pet
Galaxy; Taking five; in a kind of human Habitrail on another planet. BAMBI BAMBI, 1942
Talking tactics with “It was a great concept and I sold the idea for
producer Jonathan a lot of money — the most money I’d ever made by “Bambi was a movie I saw as a very young
Schwartz and Chris that point — but I never really cracked the story,” boy. Very, very young. It could have been the
Pratt; Making Slither says Gunn. “I also felt like they didn’t really want first one I ever saw in the movie theatre. Man,
with Elizabeth Banks me to direct the movie. They wanted the concept what a great character. Bambi’s tenderness
and Michael Rooker; in the most generic form possible, so I kept getting
Vol. 2’s Taserface pushed to do things that took the most obvious was something that influenced me a lot.”
(Chris Sullivan) takes path.” Eventually, he said, “What use is it asking me
instruction; With Zoe to be the director if you just want something that any UNDERDOG UNDERDOG, 1964-1973
Saldana and Pratt on director could do?” So he bowed out, and the project
the set of Vol. 2. went up in the flames of Development Hell. “It just “My first love affair with any character in my
wasn’t exciting for me.” life was Underdog. It’s funny: I’ve made my
then, when you didn’t do critics’ screenings, career creating these outside-of-the-margins
that was a sign that a movie was terrible and DON’T RUSH
everybody knew it.” superheroes, and that’s exactly what
Unlike Pets, Gunn was, years later, hugely Underdog is. All my creations are connected
Crestfallen, he went home and collapsed into excited about Guardians Of The Galaxy:
bed. The next morning, he awoke suddenly at another big-budget comedy featuring aliens. “I felt to Underdog in that way.”
5am, utterly convinced he had to fight the studio like I was created in a petri dish to make it. No-one
on this. “I wrote this long email saying, ‘We really else was gonna make that movie like me.” However, BRUCE JAWS, 1975
need to release it to critics,’ and the producer going back to his Troma years, through to Slither
Eric Newman really backed me up.” They talked and his second film Super, he was used to getting the “He’s a monster, but I love him. He’s there, but
Universal around, critics did get to see Slither, most he could out of the smallest budgets. “To this he wasn’t there. I mean, we don’t see much of
and it got enthusiastic write-ups. day, I still am under budget on every movie I make,” him in the movie and when we do, he borders
he says. “I am now currently under budget on [HBO on problematic. He’s created by the silhouette
“It was the best-reviewed American horror Max show] Peacemaker.” But during the course of what’s happening in the movie through the
film in ten years,” says Gunn. “And it totally of his first two Guardians films, Gunn realised this emotions and actions of the characters around
bombed at the box-office. But the truth is, you had a downside. him. That was a big storytelling lesson for me.”
only need one of those things as a first-time “I was in a constant state of anxiety about
director: you need the reviews, or you need the making my days on Guardians,” he reveals. “So THE HOST THE HOST, 2006
money it makes at the box office. So I think that I moved too fast and there are times when I wish I’d
if I hadn’t made that stand, it would have been taken a little bit more care with certain camera shots “I think The Host is my favourite kaiju. I love
much more difficult to get my next film made.” and certain performances.” The reality was, he now the sloppiness of him. He’s like this giant
realises, “when you’re talking about making a movie
at the scale of Guardians, the amount of money it puppy that is also terrifying. Part of me didn’t
adds to get every line right doesn’t cost that much want to even bring him up for this, because
more in the overall scheme of things.”
he’s such a big influence on Starro in
NEVER FORGET WHY YOU STARTED The Suicide Squad that it’s ridiculous.”
MAKING MOVIES
ROCKET RACCOON
“I’m trying to enjoy my life a little bit GUARDIAN OF THE GALAXY VOLS. 1-3, 2014-2023
more now,” says Gunn, who is in the midst of
storyboarding Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3 “Rocket is me. Rocket is the reason I did
when we chat. He admits that, after making Guardians. Rocket is, in a lot of ways, the
Vol. 2 in 2016-’17, he felt wiped out. “I was a mess. main character of Vol. 3. If I didn’t feel such
Just a nightmare in terms of my own brain. a connection to Rocket, I’m not sure I would
I thought, ‘I can’t make another five movies like
that.’ I have an anxiety disorder and I’m have agreed to do Vol. 3.”
a perfectionist and everything is hard.”

Gunn hit pause for a moment and reassessed.
“I needed to bring myself back to: why did I make
movies in the first place? Because you get wrapped
up in the money, you get wrapped up in the attention
and what people say on the internet or whatever.
And none of that matters. All that really matters
is creating something in a truthful manner with
other artists and doing the best job I possibly can.
You know: being able to do whatever I wanted
and just having fun with everybody around me.”
In this sense, he thinks, The Suicide Squad was
the closest he’s come to the days of making home
movies with his siblings, as a 12-year-old. Only with
much bigger explosions.

AUGUST 2021 59

THE

60 AUGUST 2021

James Gunn doesn’t make his gory, SEAN GUNN
gonzo films on his own. We talk to
four of his closest collaborators BEING THE YOUNGEST of the Gunn clan — six
about their unique relationships
siblings, five of them brothers — Sean was often
WORDS DAN JOLIN
treated as the “guinea pig” in his biggest-brother
Left: Sean Gunn
dons the mo-cap James’ early filmmaking experiments. “I think
suit to play Rocket
in Guardians Of The I shot and killed one of my older brothers in
Galaxy as brother
James looks on. a Super-8 film James made when I was probably
Above, from top:
As Kraglin in three years old,” he reveals. “All in perfectly good
Guardians; With
Michael Rooker and taste, I assure you.”
Stephen Blackehart
in 2010’s Super. While other Gunns have worked with

James over the years (brother Brian co-wrote

the James-produced Brightburn with their

cousin Mark; Brian, James and Sean were

jointly responsible for Spike TV’s PG Porn),

Sean and James have collaborated the most,

simply because their jobs slot together best.

“He’s a writer-director and I’m an actor, so it’s

sort of a perfect fit,” says Sean who, in keeping

with the “guinea pig” theme, played on-set

Rocket Raccoon (as well as space-bandit Kraglin)

in both Guardians Of The Galaxy films, and of

course Weasel (as well as an obnoxious Belle Reve

prisoner) in The Suicide Squad.

Sean was even there beside his brother

during his Troma days, starring in 1996’s

Tromeo And Juliet as Sammy Capulet. Still

between his third and fourth years at the

Goodman School of Drama, he says it was

“a magnificent thing” getting to work on an

actual movie set. Though he points out that “I’m

using a low bar for what qualifies as an actual

movie set.” Even so, he was surprised to find

himself having flashbacks to Troma 18 years

later when he first walked into the production

office of Guardians. “It had these massive rooms,

while in Troma it was a corridor and one bulletin

board. But it was essentially the same thing; in

some ways they were a weird mirror image of

each other, in that you’re essentially doing the

same task.”

It probably helps that the James Gunn of

today retains “a lot of the weirdness” of the

Troma-era James Gunn. “He never decided he

needed to make things more commercial for the

sake of being more commercial,” says Sean. “But

when you’re making something like Guardians,

it’s correct to cast a wider net in terms of who

you’re communicating with, and I think James

has done a really great job of that.”

In terms of James’ future, Sean is as

curious as anyone. Of course, he’s all set to return

as both Kraglin and Rocket in Guardians Vol. 3

(as he will in Taika Waititi’s Thor: Love And

Thunder), but after that? “You can only go up

to a certain level in terms of making bigger and

bigger movies,” he muses. “So I’m wondering if

at some point he’s going to scale it back and

try to make a more intimate film. It’ll be

interesting.” There’s a strong chance there’ll

be a role for the youngest Gunn in it. Maybe U
playing an actual guinea pig.

AUGUST 2021 61

MICHAEL ROOKER kindred spirits, united by a dark, sardonic sense of that the coach needs to pound on the helmet Alamy, Capital Pictures, Getty Images, Shutterstock
humour. “I’ll make a joke that is completely bad and say, ‘Go out there and kill ’em!’ I don’t like
THE AUDITION PROCESS can be a tough one timing at times,” says Rooker. “That’s what I do!” pussyfooting around with direction. I like being
for even the most seasoned actor. So you can yelled at. It fuels the scene for me.”
imagine Michael Rooker’s astonishment when, After Slither wrapped, they started meeting
as he walked in to test for the role of antagonist every Sunday with Gunn’s brother Sean for Rooker, it seems, is always there for Gunn.
Grant Grant in James Gunn’s 2006 debut a cheese-and-wine night, and Rooker has duly The director describes him as “a touchstone”:
Slither, he was met by the sound of applause appeared in every Gunn movie since, most a reminder that he’s still a warm-blooded
from a director he’d never even met. “I did the famously as the blue-skinned Ravager Yondu human being, not just some ultra-focused
old time-out,” says Rooker now. “‘What? What? in the two Guardians movies (“That character movie-making machine. When Empire visited
Maybe you’d better wait until I read.’” was so bloody well written”). By all accounts, the set of The Suicide Squad in Atlanta, Georgia,
there’s never been a dull moment. Their Slither in late 2019, we found Rooker in the video
Gunn was a fan. He loved Rooker’s work compadre Nathan Fillion says their rapport is village, even though he was all done with his
in everything from Henry: Portrait Of A Serial a joy to behold: laughing, cursing, screaming scenes as stoic killer Savant. Just hanging
Killer to Cliffhanger; “He just always delivers the insults at each other. “James will torture Rooker out, cracking jokes and talking shit with his
performance,” the director says. “He’s great!” for the benefit of everyone else,” Fillion tells us. blockbuster-making bud.
Rooker, in return, ditched another project he was Empire mentions this to Rooker.
considering and suffered through hours of painful Speaking now, we ask him how he’s seen
prosthetics on Slither, to portray Grant’s icky “James likes to talk to me?” his friend change over the 15-odd years they’ve
transformation into an alien… thing. “It was very No, torture. known each other. “He’s gotten good,” he says.
excruciating,” says Rooker, “but I loved Slither.” “He likes to talk for me?” Anything else? “He’s gotten softer.” Rooker
Mainly because, it turned out he and Gunn were No, torture! sounds almost disappointed. “He used to yell
Rooker laughs. “He likes to torture me too, at me better. I’m trying to get him to yell at me
yes. His talking to me is like torture. But who else more!” He shouldn’t worry. We suspect the
can he torture? Come on! I’m the football player torture will continue for many years yet.

62 AUGUST 2021

Left, top to bottom:
Nathan Fillion as Bill Pardy
in Slither — “Something’s
wrong with me...”; And as
The Holy Avenger in Super.

Left: Michael Rooker NATHAN FILLION Guardians Vol. 2), after first working with him
as Yondu (with James on Slither, playing small-town sheriff Bill Pardy.
Gunn, cast and crew) ONE DAY DURING the shoot for The Suicide It was a great role, but the shoot was hell.
on the set of 2017’s Squad, Nathan Fillion rocked up wearing a T-shirt
Guardians Of The entirely covered by a huge image of James Gunn’s “That film was wracked with problems,”
Galaxy Vol. 2. face. “Just something to make him smile, let him Fillion says. “Costumes. Special effects.
Below, top to know I’m thinking about him,” deadpans the Puppeteering. Weather. Cold. Stuff you just can’t
bottom: Rooker Canadian star. “Just threw it over my costume. plan for. But watching James deal with those
as drug-gang ‘This old thing? Oh, I’ve had this for years!’” (He problems was how I learned his strengths.
henchman Abe in hadn’t. He’d recently ordered it from a website.) Watching him make the best out of a failed
Super; Eew! As the situation. Watching him make something work,
nightmarish alien Fillion plays super-naff supervillain TDK in when by all rights it shouldn’t have. Thank God
‘thing’ in 2006’s The Suicide Squad, and has appeared in almost all for James.”
Slither; Getting deep of Gunn’s movies (he didn’t make the final cut of
and meaningful with One of the things Fillion has come to
Rocket in Vol. 2. appreciate most about Gunn is the safety net of
trust he creates for his collaborators. “It’s safe to
fail on a James Gunn set,” he explains. “It’s safe to
try something. It’s safe to come off stupid and say,
‘I don’t exactly understand what that means.
Help me.’ He doesn’t make you feel dumb when
you’re dumb.” And that trust goes both ways,
Fillion says. “He’s a director that doesn’t
micromanage. He wants you to bring something
to it that is yours. I’ll never not work with James.”

We believe him. He’s got the T-shirt to
prove it.

PETER SAFRAN movies as big as Shazam!, Aquaman and, of
course, The Suicide Squad. But he’s also been
THERE’S A GOOD reason why James Gunn has Gunn’s manager during that whole time, after
repeat collaborators. “I don’t continually work first hearing about him in 1998 from their mutual
with people who aren’t great at what they do,” friend, actor Jamie Kennedy. “He gave me a copy
he says. “I know I can rely on all of them for of a screenplay called The Specials [a superhero
quality in different ways.” In the case of producer comedy that would star Kennedy and Rob Lowe],
Peter Safran, that quality comes from “his written by James,” says Safran. “It was the
counsel, his wisdom, the way he deals with funniest thing I’d ever read. So I called James,
political situations.” who was living in New York at the time, and said,
‘Come out to LA for two weeks and let me set up
Safran has been producing movies and TV ten meetings for you.’” By the end of those two
shows since the late ’90s, with recent credits on weeks, Gunn had a writing gig for Jay Roach:
Spy Vs. Spy. It was never made, but it got him
started in Hollywood.

Not that he ever went Hollywood, Safran
insists. “He is exactly the same guy today, as one
of the pre-eminent filmmakers in the world, as he
was 20-odd years ago when he was just coming
out of Columbia with an MFA. He’s just a guy that
loves movies. A true artist.”

But how easy is he to manage? “Not
difficult,” laughs Safran. “He’s so prolific and
self-generated, it’s been a very long time since
one has had to find a job for James Gunn. He’s the
full package: writer, director, producer. He even
does all his own storyboards. And he’s fun. It’s
just fun to be involved in the process of bringing
something from his mind onto the screen.”

AUGUST 2021 63

64 AUGUST 2021

From Westworld to
new future-noir

Reminiscence, she’s
blazing a trail in the

world of sci-fi,
getting complex,
original tales up
on the screen. The
writer-director tells us

why she keeps
swinging big, no matter

what’s in her way

WORDS JAMES DYER

AUGUST 2021 65

Like many of us during lockdown, the Westworld and could not do based on some trope that I had Bannister — or, to give him his full name,
co-creator, screenwriter, and now movie director no kinship to. It’s maddening, because to get Nick Bannister — is the protagonist of Joy’s first
used the time away from society at large to better through a day, you can’t just be you, you also have film, her attempt to take those noirs she loved in
herself. She taught herself the guitar, took up to deflect fallacies about who you should be.” her younger years and give them a complex,
painting, and even learned to whittle. But modern spin. A former army interrogator, he
surpassing all these endeavours is a new-found Her parents’ idea of who she should be, operates out of a dingy back-alley office, slashes
passion for embroidery, a sample of which she it’s fair to say, did not include ‘Hollywood of streetlight filtering in through half-drawn
holds proudly aloft. It’s a vibrant tapestry of screenwriter’. While hugely supportive of her blinds. His desk is a mosaic of papers, the office
intertwining leaves, dotted with hand-stitched academic pursuits, they didn’t allow her to watch strewn with empty whisky tumblers and full ash
blossoms of viridian, scarlet and canary-yellow. films or TV as a child and, aside from stolen trays. With his trench coat, snub-nosed .38, and
Inside the floral wreath, the centrepiece glimpses on the occasional sick day from school gravelly voiceover setting the scene, Bannister
comprises three short words sewn in flowing, (“I would surreptitiously put on Magnum P.I.”), it is every inch the gumshoe Bogart, Mitchum or
cursive script: “TAKE NO SHIT.” wasn’t until adulthood that Joy fully experienced Lancaster might have portrayed 70 years prior.
the wonders of screen time. She vividly recalls
For the woman in charge of HBO’s working as an au pair for a family in New York Reminiscence, while set in the near future,
labyrinthine sci-fi Western, who this summer and, once her young charge was tucked away is very much rooted in the past. It’s a timeless
makes her film debut with Reminiscence, an in bed, settling in to watch old movies till the noir in which Hugh Jackman’s irascible P.I. has
equally ambitious sci-fi noir, these are words to small hours, gazing wide-eyed as the magic of his world knocked askew when a mysterious
live by. After all, Joy has spent her entire life Hollywood’s Golden Age washed over her. woman in a red dress (Rebecca Ferguson’s
doing what people told her not to. A Harvard Law Mae) steps into his office, bringing with her
graduate who once counted Elizabeth Warren “To Have And Have Not, The Thin Man, Out a simple case that, naturally, proves to be
among her professors, Joy walked away from Of The Past, I watched all these black-and-white anything but. It is, as so many noirs before it,
a lucrative law career with zero notice to join movies, some of them noirs, some of them a love story wrapped in a gritty mystery, one
the writing staff on Bryan Fuller’s short-lived romances. I was struck by how stylish and cool the in which dirty streets wash clean but filthy
(though excellent) Pushing Daisies. Later, as the world was, but how underneath that there was so consciences don’t.
only female in the writers’ room for Burn Notice, much rot. The women were strong, they could
she remembers being routinely told that women hold their own with sharp tongues against the “There was something about the ability to
can’t write action. Even as showrunner of men. You couldn’t talk down to these women, and build a world in noir, but to take the character
Westworld (alongside husband and creative that undercurrent of strength appealed to me. And archetypes they have, keep the strength but add
partner Jonathan Nolan), her elaborately staged then films like Vertigo, which grounds you in even more layers,” Joy says. “Because when you
action is often misattributed, viewers assuming Jimmy Stewart’s perspective, but you’re following understand the trope as shorthand, then it’s like,
that Nolan, rather than she, is primary architect a narrator who is unreliable and blinded by his ‘Okay, how are you gonna subvert it?’”
of that show’s violent delights. Carrying the preconceptions of who people should be. That’s
weight of other people’s preconceptions is, she certainly something that you see in Bannister.” The answer, in part, was a sci-fi slant that
freely admits, exhausting. substitutes 1940s LA for 2030s Miami, and makes

“I spoke Chinese at home, as opposed to
English,” says Joy, the daughter of a Taiwanese
mother and British father. “And it came with
all these assumptions of the kind of food I would
eat and the things I would be good at. I was
constantly fighting this idea of what I could

66 AUGUST 2021

Michael Crichton’s somewhat daft film about robot that’s part therapy, part guided meditation, allows
cowboys running amok into an uncompromising,
deeply intellectual slice of hard sci-fi that explored his clients to slip seamlessly into the past — an
the nature of free will, sentience and what memory
actually means when your remembrances are opportunity rendered all the more appealing when
nothing more than programmed subroutines. But
even that didn’t fully scratch the itch. the present and future have less and less to offer.

So, a decade after her initial discussion Joy’s Miami, while set only ten years hence,
with Nolan, while heavily pregnant with their
daughter and in the process of giving birth to is Greta Thunberg’s nightmare. Sea levels have
the couple’s other child, the pilot for Westworld,
Joy sat down and wrote Reminiscence. It was risen and a drowning America fights a losing
a crime thriller about a man whose profession
was to sift through people’s memories, letting battle against the encroaching tide. Waves lap
them return to their childhoods, revisit lost
loves and wallow in the pleasures of their former against high-rises as commuters bob past in
selves — for a reasonable fee.
sloops and rowboats. While the poor wade
“It came around the time when I lost my
grandfather,” Joy recalls. “It was painful for my through brine-drenched streets, the rich hole up
grandmother to look back. She didn’t want to
look at the photos because it was too difficult — in the Dry Lands: sprawling, inundation-proof
too close and yet too far away. That’s why
Clockwise from above: PI Nick Bannister (Hugh Jackman) memory has this sweet sting to it. Why nostalgia enclaves surrounded by towering, concrete
sifts through the memories of the mysterious Mae (Rebecca is both so intoxicating and so painful: because
Ferguson); Director Lisa Joy with Thandiwe Newton and you are coming tantalisingly close to a moment flood barriers which divert the torrent towards
Jackman on set; Mixing business and pleasure. you miss, but you know you’ll never get back
there. And I thought, ‘But what if you could?’” less salubrious neighbourhoods.
Bannister an investigator not of physical clues, but
of breadcrumbs scattered across the human psyche. Enter Nick Bannister, who, through a process Neither a gleaming, chrome-plated iFuture,

... nor some grimdark dystopia, Joy’s sci-fi vision

ITSTARTEDWITHMEMENTO. MORE is rooted firmly — and uncomfortably — in our

specifically, the film’s US premiere, where Joy — tomorrow. It was, for her, a perfect backdrop
still toiling away in the legal world, only there as
a friend’s plus one — first met director and future for an ‘updated noir’, a story that took hints of
brother-in-law Christopher Nolan. Along with
his dashing younger sibling, who had penned the Vonnegut and Philip K. Dick, Blade Runner and
story upon which the film was based.
Eternal Sunshine, and used them to tell a classic,
“I met Jonah and was like, ‘Man, I always
wanted to write something on memory.’ Which hardboiled mystery. The gambit paid off. After
must’ve sounded so bizarre coming from somebody
who had nothing to do with the film industry. But a furious bidding war, Legendary Pictures
I just remember thinking, ‘He beat me to it!’”
snapped up the script for a tidy seven-figure sum
The idea never went away, though. Even
after Joy — who gained Bryan Fuller’s attention in 2013, just two days after Joy took it to market.
after writing a spec script for Veronica Mars
while studying for the bar — transitioned to Reminiscence then appeared on the prestigious U
become a full-time writer. It wasn’t until she
and Nolan met with J.J. Abrams about the rights Black List later that year.
to ’70s sci-fi Westworld that ‘memory’ resurfaced.

Between them, Joy and Nolan turned

AUGUST 2021 67

Ferguson,
Jackman and
Joy on set.

Westworld, meanwhile, became all-consuming. to say, ‘Alright, this is probably how they see it: a succession of inventive set-pieces that include
Joy and Nolan wove their complex tapestry, beautiful girl in a red dress walks into a bar — this a desperate, balletic struggle in a sunken music
leading viewers through The Maze, while toying is what you think. She’s nice to you — this is what hall and a frenetic shoot-out during which Hugh
with notions of reality and fantasy. It wasn’t until you think. Ooh, she did drugs — this is what you Jackman gets a face full of eels.
2019 that Joy turned her eye back to Reminiscence, think. Right? And to take those different lenses and
using her Westworld clout to earn a director’s chair use it to propel a mystery where the truth can only “It’s those little flourishes that make it
and finally turning her tale of memory into reality. be revealed when you learn to see beyond tropes.” different,” she laughs. “The unlikely ways in
which people will fight and surprise you. In that
Joy had written the character of Bannister Bannister’s journey, then, is as much about one I have Hugh Jackman, Wolverine, one of the
with Jackman in mind, so after dropping him opening his eyes as solving the central mystery. To best action heroes in the world. But I wanted to
a casual email (which you can when you’re look past the mirage he’s constructed and see Mae show him helpless and in a psychological space
showrunner of one of the hottest series on TV), for who she is, instead of who he wants her to be. where he’s dealing with an eel problem!”
she popped round for coffee and secured her lead
character: “Wolverine meets Humphrey Bogart”. ... Her feature debut in the bag, Joy is currently
in the process of prepping Westworld’s fourth
Almost more important than her hero, JOY, LIKE THE WOMEN SHE WRITES, HAS season, and will soon head to these shores for
however, was the subject of his obsession. pre-production on another sci-fi series, Amazon’s
Because, as is so often the case with noir, never conformed to expectation. Never been The Peripheral. She also has an adaptation of
ultimately it all comes down to the woman in the willing to fit inside the box society provided for
dress. Ferguson’s Mae is an enigma, a promise her. Yes, she can now embroider, but she’s also
in human form and, as with all femmes fatales, giddily enthusiastic about martial arts (“I tried
partly a false projection of male expectation. to become a ninja, but nobody was hiring ninjas
so I had to be a lawyer”). She delights in
Subverting gender assumptions has old-fashioned love stories, but her true passion
become a fixture in Joy’s work, from Westworld’s lies in directing bone-crunching fight scenes.
Maeve (Thandiwe Newton, who also appears
in Reminiscence), the brothel madam who can “The stuff that really gets me excited is
manipulate the very fabric of her world, to personal, with one character battling another
Dolores (Evan Rachel Wood) — designed as a where the choreography in and of itself tells
victim, but who supersedes her programming to a story.”
become a terrifying force of nature. In twisting
these archetypes, Joy has consistently wrong- Joy’s only previous directing experience
footed her audience. It’s a theme that continues has been Westworld Season 2 episode ‘The
in Reminiscence, which plays with the way we Riddle Of The Sphinx’ (in which she has Ed
choose to see the people around us. Harris force-feed a glass of nitroglycerine to
a Confederate soldier), but with Reminiscence
“Part of the idea of rebelling against tropes is she arrives as a fully-fledged action director.
that, as a woman, you’re surrounded by them all the Joy uses her singular environment to stage
time,” says Joy. “So it makes it so deliciously fun

68 AUGUST 2021

Top to bottom: Memory man Bannister trawls the streets of a near-future Miami for clues; Joy with her partner,
screenwriter Jonathan Nolan, on the set of HBO sci-fi series Westworld; Bannister and business associate Watts (Newton).

retro-future video game Fallout in development impression, she accepted.
and spent a good portion of lockdown — when “It’s a game that operates on social paranoia,”
neither sewing nor whittling — writing a
companion piece to Reminiscence, one that may she explains. “It was all yelling at each other and
cement her status as the current queen of sci-fi. I just kept getting killed. They’d be like, ‘She’s
a useless player, kill her!’ And I’d just die and die
“It’s a distant cousin, not a sequel. It’s an and die. The crippling self-doubt and insecurity
evolution in theme and a conception of the world that came from a supposed leisure activity with
and man’s place within it. Plus, there’s a lot a bunch of dudes who were far more powerful
of action.” She grins. “I wanted to create a new than me thinking I’m an idiot was so miserable.”
type of action. It’s taking different bits from
different cultures and kind of fusing a new way of Despondent, Joy went home, keen to put the
approaching action that I think will be exciting.” experience behind her. “But Jonah was like, ‘You
have to go again. They completely underestimate
Reinventing the action genre is quite a claim, you. That’s the only tool you have, so use it.’”
but one Joy makes matter-of-factly, with hint of
neither ego nor hubris. She isn’t trying to make a Despite the prospect of further humiliation,
statement; she’s simply doing what she loves. Some Joy returned the following week. She was,
will scoff, of course. After all, what does she know? she recalls, chosen as the werewolf, the game
She’s just a girl. It’s the same tedious stereotype eventually coming down to three final players.
she’s been pushing back against her entire life.
“I pretended to be the person they thought
“Have you ever played Werewolf?” she asks. I was: incredibly stupid. Each of these two guys
This, she goes on to explain, is a party game in jockeyed for me to side with them and vote
which a group of players sit in a circle, each the other one out. Out of three people it was
assigned the role of either villager or werewolf. inconceivable to them that I was the werewolf.
During the game’s ‘night’ turn, the wolves And it was because I was stuck in a trope. They
secretly mark villagers for death, while during were blind, but that’s how powerful tropes are.”
the ‘day’ survivors try to build a consensus to
uncover the monsters among them. The outcome? “I absolutely annihilated
them all and then never played again.”
Ten years ago, while working on Burn
Notice, Joy, then a junior writer, was invited to Underestimate Lisa Joy at your peril.
participate in a game of Werewolf with a group of Because she isn’t ‘just’ a girl. She’s also the
industry heavy-hitters. Eager to make a good werewolf. And she takes no shit from anybody.

REMINISCENCE IS IN CINEMAS FROM 20 AUGUST

AUGUST 2021 69

70 AUGUST 2021

OUT

THE TALE OF A SYRIAN MAN STUCK
IN BUREAUCRATIC HELL ON A REMOTE

SCOTTISH ISLAND, LIMBO SOUNDS

LIKE THE HARDEST OF SELLS.

OF

IN FACT, IT MAY
BE THE FUNNIEST, MOST PROFOUND

SURPRISE OF THE YEAR

WORDS JOHN NUGENT

NOWHERE

AUGUST 2021 71

IT STARTS WITH characters and subject matter, finding went out there to work with an NGO
‘IT STARTED WITH A KISS’. poignancy in the most peculiar of places. [non-governmental organisation]. And then
It’s a film which features a Freddie Mercury when we came to make the film, we couldn’t
As Hot Chocolate’s 1982 cheese-ballad hit superfan from Afghanistan with a pet get the insurance from the university to go
plays through a cheap CD player, a woman chicken, and a doctor who is only in his back out there, because it was too dangerous.
with a perm and plaid skirt dances with a man surgery once a month, “weather permitting”. Al-Qaeda were operating in the area.”
with a moustache and a combover. Written in
chalk on a blackboard behind them are the It tells the story of Omar, a musician from The project was scrapped. But the
words: “Cultural Awareness! Sex: Is A Smile Syria, who finds himself sent to a remote island impulse for making a similar film stuck
An Invitation?” A group of men — asylum in Scotland’s Outer Hebrides while he waits around. Sharrock, who grew up in Edinburgh,
seekers from the Middle East and Africa — for word of his asylum application. We wait might not seem like the most obvious person
sit on plastic chairs, watching without with him. Told through painterly vignettes, at to tell a story about refugees from the Middle
expression. The woman and man are locked once oddly hilarious and heartbreakingly sad, East and North Africa. Yet his association
in a bizarre performative seduction, a kind time seems to stop. “I’ve never, ever cried and with the area and the culture runs deep. ”It’s
of school assembly for adults, explaining laughed from reading a script,” says Amir El- something that I’ve been interested in for
Western sexual politics in the bluntest of Masry, who plays Omar, “until I read Limbo.” such a long time,” he says. Sharrock studied
terms. He grabs her behind. She slaps him Arabic at the University of Edinburgh (his
away. The group of men just stare blankly. But how did Scotland, Syria and a global tutor, Marwa Mouazen, served as a dialect
humanitarian crisis form the basis of this coach on Limbo), and he spent the third year
This is the opening scene of Limbo, one summer’s most original comedy? Never of his degree in Damascus, a year before the
of the strangest and most distinctive films thought — as Hot Chocolate once put it — civil war broke out in Syria.
you’re likely to see this year, in which, for the it would come to this.
most part, nothing happens and nobody goes The experience was life-changing. “It was
anywhere. It’s a film which manages to eke ••• incredible,” Sharrock recalls. “It was part of my
humour and pathos from the ongoing refugee formative years, so it was a time that was so
crisis, while remaining respectful to its THE FIRST TIME THAT LIMBO’S WRITER- incredibly special to me. And Damascus itself
director, Ben Sharrock, tried to make a film was so beautiful. The thing that stood out was
about refugees, Al-Qaeda got in the way. “In just how peaceful it was. I was the recipient of
film school, we had a failed attempt at making so much generosity from the people there.”
a short film in the Saharawi refugee camps in
southern Algeria,” Sharrock explains. “We While there, Sharrock attended the
Damascus International Film Festival, and

72 AUGUST 2021

Clockwise from he says. “The way that I work is that I start in the film, of the kind only to be found in
left: Queen with the subject matter. I started with this rural Scotland — such as the world’s
desire to tell a story about the refugee crisis, saddest-looking dolphin tour, or the sign in
fanboy Farhad and then it took me a long time to really find the supermarket that says, “Please refrain
(Vikash Bhai) the specific story that I wanted to tell.” from urinating in the freezer.” But when the
with adopted pet time came to start filming Limbo, the lure of
Freddie Jr in the He had a sense it should take place Uist became more than just a stimulus for the
asylum seekers’ somewhere remote, and initially pondered writing process. Nowhere else, it seemed,
spartan kitchen; setting the film in a fishing village in Iceland, could match its strange, stark beauty. “We
The crew film before considering somewhere a little closer went on a journey all over Scotland to find
locals Plug to home. Some lo-fi location scouting — somewhere that would be more appropriate
(Cameron Fulton) “Basically, I just looked on Google Maps” to shoot a film, on the mainland or on one of
— eventually led him to the Scottish the other islands that were more accessible,”
and Stevie archipelago of Uist (population: 4,276). says Sharrock. “We just couldn’t find
(Lewis Gribben) “I thought, ‘How have I not heard of Uist?’ anywhere that had the same feeling as Uist.
Because it’s actually pretty big on the map.” You know, Uist is very beautiful, but with
turning the right weather, it’s also very bleak. And it
doughnuts on Entranced by its desolate landscape and feels vast. Because really what I was looking
the beach; Omar its extreme remoteness (the nearest major for is an island that could be a metaphor
(Amir El-Masry), city is almost 200 miles away), Sharrock for purgatory.”
spent several weeks on the Outer Hebridean
Wasef (Ola islands to write his screenplay, holed up in •••
Orebiyi), Abedi a “peat-fired cottage with no WiFi”, searching
(Kwabena Ansah) for creative sparks. “I would write in the A FILM ABOUT EXPRESSIONLESS
mornings and then I would drive around the
and Farhad island looking for locations in the afternoon, refugees in purgatory might seem like a hard
anxiously await trying to think about what Omar would be
thinking about — and also bumping into sell. But Limbo proved surprisingly
the postman; locals and having odd conversations.”
El-Masry and straightforward to pitch to the money men.
writer-director Sharrock’s initial encounter with the
Ben Sharrock islands influenced some of the quirky details “We were in a really advantageous position U

check the because of my previous film, Pikadero,”
rushes.

grew to love Middle Eastern filmmakers like
Abbas Kiarostami and Elia Suleiman. The
latter, in particular was a huge influence on
Sharrock, and a key piece to the Limbo puzzle.
“When I watched Elia Suleiman’s The Time
That Remains, I was like, ‘I want to be a
filmmaker!’” Sharrock says. Suleiman’s 2009
film, shot with his trademark detached style
and Buster Keaton-esque sense of deadpan
humour, depicted the violent founding of
Israel. The filmmaker was once described in
a review as “Wes Anderson... if he was born
an Israeli/Palestinian Christian Arab”.

“What stood out,” says Sharrock, “was
how he could look at such a serious socio-
political subject matter and treat it with this
lightness of touch, and this undertone of
absurdist humour, that helps us see the
humanity of the characters.”

It lit a fire in Sharrock. If poker-faced
comedy with a political twist could be made in
the Middle East, could it come to Scotland too?

•••

IF LIMBO SOUNDS LIKE A STRANGE
proposition, it took a while to make sense to
Sharrock too. ”I’m actually quite unsure of
how long it took me to write the screenplay,”

AUGUST 2021 73

explains Sharrock. Shot in northern Spain indeed, on a break. Sharrock spent the time holding down lighting stands”, while a day
with “essentially zero budget”, Sharrock’s 2015 with his actors rehearsing, getting to grips filming on the beach saw Sharrock’s thick,
debut told the story of an unconventional with the film’s singular style, and meeting Arctic explorer coat drenched. “It wasn’t
romance, against the backdrop of the with real refugees. raining. The wind was just whipping the
financial crisis. Though it never got a water off the Atlantic. I just remember being
theatrical release in the UK, the film was “We were very fortunate to be welcomed completely soaked through.”
hugely acclaimed by those who saw it. The into this young Syrian men’s group in
Hollywood Reporter praised its “deft balance Scotland,” remembers El-Masry. “They were Bemused locals helped where they could;
of the pessimistic and the playful”, and the generous and brave in telling their stories. even if there were mild grumbles about the
film won the Michael Powell Award for Best After spending some time with them, “single road track being clogged up with
British Feature Film at the Edinburgh Film everything narrowed down — that this could traffic”, many appeared in the film as extras.
Festival. It also acted as a calling card for happen to anybody.” One detail that struck the The sight of a film crew was likely fairly alien
Sharrock’s style: absurdist jokes, understated actor was how humour played an important to them: Limbo holds the distinction of being
performances, fixed cameras, careful role in the men’s lives. “This idea that you can the first film ever shot on Uist. “And it could
compositions, thoughtful themes. Financiers laugh through your traumatic experiences is well be the last,” notes Sharrock drily.
looking for a sense of what Limbo might be very reflective of the Arab culture. We tend to
had an example to go by. “We still had to go laugh at our woes. Quite similar to British But the biggest challenge for the film
through a process to confirm public funding,” humour, if you think about it.” was not the weather. The trickiest task lay
says Sharrock. “Particularly these public in balancing Limbo’s eccentric, unique tone:
funders — rightly so — interrogating my right The prep time proved key. Limited the push and pull between the ridiculous and
to make a film about refugees.” But it worked: budget meant limited filming days, and when the profound. “It was at the forefront of
a modest budget was built up. the production finally made it to Uist in late everything that we did,” says Sharrock.
2018, Sharrock found himself in a constant “You can’t go too funny and you can’t go
A month of preparation ensued with war with Scottish weather. “It was incredibly too dramatic. You can pivot either way, but
the cast, which included El-Masry as Omar, challenging, all the way through,” he says. you’re holding this line.”
Vikash Bhai as his Queen-obsessed wannabe ”Every day was just an absolute battle against
manager/agent Farhad, and Kwabena Ansah the island. It was really difficult to know Sharrock took a careful, considered,
and Ola Orebiyi as two Nigerian brothers, whether we’d got it or not, because there meticulous approach to every shot. Finding
Abedi and Wasef, who constantly bicker over was no time to think.” The notoriously that balance was like a delicate chemistry
whether Ross and Rachel from Friends were, temperamental Outer Hebrides climate experiment — too much of one element, and
meant sometimes there would be “six guys the entire mixture might be ruined. “Every
tool that we had was interrogated to balance

74 AUGUST 2021

Clockwise from what being deadpan is.” But in the world of who have watched it. When it screened at the
Limbo, there is plenty to be emotional about. Zurich Film Festival, an asylum seeker in the
left: Farhad and audience stood up at the Q&A that followed.
••• “He just said, ‘This was my life,’” recalls
Omar outside the Sharrock. “‘This is what I went through.’ He
THERE WERE 35,099 ASYLUM applications almost broke down in tears. The auditorium
refugee centre, in the UK in the year leading up to March just went completely silent.”
2020. For people escaping war or oppressive
avoiding the regimes, the route to resettlement can be At another festival — the Cairo
brutal, hindered by a hostile environment International Film Festival, where the film
stares of the and a hopelessly underfunded and heavily won three awards including Best Film — El-
bureaucratic system. Those who survive Masry recalls the audience being stunned that
locals...; ...And the often deadly journey are met with its director was a white Scotsman. “Everybody
antagonism and indifference. Life for an assumed that he was Middle Eastern! They had
contemplating asylum seeker in this country is rarely funny. seen all the cultural references and thought it
could only be from someone who really knows
life while at the But the stories of these people do not the culture.” At yet another festival, San
necessarily need to be told in a depressing Sebastian in northern Spain, one audience
playground; realist drama. They can be just as authentic, member somehow confused this hyper-
and as powerful, in a strange, stylised comedy stylised, meticulously composed film for a
Helga (Sidse like Limbo. Everyone’s story contains documentary. “We took that as a compliment,”
multitudes. “It’s the Calpol effect,” Sharrock says El-Masry, with a polite laugh.
Babett Knudsen) says. “Y’know, a spoonful of sugar helps
the medicine go down. I feel like I can It’s fairly clear to most that Limbo is
on set with Ben communicate the way that I’m looking at the a work of fiction. But in a world where reality
world and the injustice that I see in the world is brutal and bleak, maybe an absurdist film
Sharrock; through making films that have that mix of in which nothing happens and nobody goes
humour and absurdity and drama.” anywhere can offer more truth than reality
El-Masry and ever could.
Proof that this approach works can be
Sharrock chat found in how the film has resonated with those LIMBO IS IN CINEMAS FROM 30 JULY

on location.

that tone. Even the use of colour and the
composition and the lens choice. Like,
sometimes a hat would be too colourful. So
then it would feel too absurd, and it would
even be a case of taking the hat out and
swapping it for something else — just to try
to balance the feel of the composition.”

For the actors, it was a unique challenge
too, working within an incredibly
understated and nuanced world. “Ben would
say, ‘We’re going to go Buster Keaton on this
shot,’” recalls El-Masry. “And I would just
know, ‘Now’s the time to be very inward.’ It
is a challenge, because, y’know, I gesticulate
a lot! But he would just say, ‘Give me nothing.
Just feel it.’”

The point, Sharrock explains, is that —
especially when the camera is in an extreme
close-up, “literally inches from his face” —
the audience will register every subtle facial
change, perhaps deeper than if the face was
heavily emoting. “You can feel every little
bit of emotion in him and really see deeply
into his eyes,” Sharrock says. “You know if
there’s an adjustment of performance. What
I wanted to do with Limbo was try to push
the boundaries of absurdist films — push the
emotional range of deadpan.” He laughs.
”Which is a bit of a paradox to the idea of

AUGUST 2021 75

Peter Jackson and Edgar Wright
have each made a passion-project
documentary: The Beatles: Get Back
and The Sparks Brothers. In a
world-exclusive Zoom call, the
filmmakers chat to each other about
doing justice to their musical heroes

WORDS CHRIS HEWITT

76 AUGUST 2021

ETER JACKSON’S ONLY

been on the Zoom with

P Edgar Wright for a
minute-and-a-half, but
he has something to say.

“I get junketed out,”

he announces, in that

deadpan Kiwi accent.

“Especially doing Empire interviews. A few

minutes into it, you just want to scream and

run out the door.”

Only the twinkle in his eyes gives away the

joke. Not that there’s anywhere to run to —

Jackson is doing this from a sofa in his living

room in New Zealand (Wright is currently in

a London hotel room). And it’s clear, over the

course of the next two-and-a-half hours as the

two filmmakers trade questions, answers and

revelations, that there’s nowhere else they’d

rather be than here, chatting about music and

movies. Specifically, their new documentaries

about The Beatles and Sparks, respectively,

which they have spent the last few years of their

lives making.

Jackson’s film is The Beatles: Get Back,

a six-hour, three-part snapshot — rooftop gig

and all — of the famous, frenetic and, so it’s long

been believed, fraught three-week period when

John-Paul-George-Ringo recorded Let It Be, the

last album released by The Beatles while they

were a going concern. Wright’s is The Sparks

Brothers, a soup-to-nuts crash course cramming

in everything you wanted to know about esoteric

Californian art-rockers Ron and Russell Mael.

The two docs are an exercise in contrasts. One is

an example of ‘you are there’ storytelling, with

Jackson drawing on 60 hours of footage shot by

director Michael Lindsay-Hogg for his currently

unavailable 1970 documentary Let It Be. The other

is a whirlwind trip through time, compressing

entire decades into a couple of hours. One is

about the most famous and influential band of all

time; the other about the best band you’ve never

heard of. Or, at least, that one member of this

little Zoom party hadn’t heard of…

So, it made sense to get you together.
You’ve both made the shift into music
documentaries, of course. Both even
feature Paul McCartney.
Peter Jackson: I should just start saying that,
as far as music goes, I’m a complete moron. So,
when I started watching Edgar’s film for the
first time, I thought for a little while that it was
a made-up documentary about a made-up band,
done in a really straight way. It took me a little
while to be convinced that Sparks was actually
a real band. I’ve seen it a couple of times now and
what I like about it is that it’s just a really good
story. It’s about two guys who actually do their
own thing, and even though maybe being a little
bit more famous would have been nice, they’ve
still kept their integrity.
Edgar Wright: Yeah. Jason Schwartzman says
that funny thing at the start of the movie, U

AUGUST 2021 77

“I don’t want to know anything more about I was doing this spiel and he said, “You should do Top to bottom:
them.” The word ‘cult’ is an interesting one, the Sparks documentary.” I was like, “Yeah! Peter Jackson in
because it would be accurate to describe Sparks Yeah, I will!” the director’s chair;
as a cult band. They’re not widely known. Jackson: The documentary is all the better Jackson, Wright
Jackson: I know what you’re saying with ‘cult’, because it’s made by someone who actually and Empire’s Chris
but I think they’re actually a bit better than has a passion. That comes across, and that makes united on Zoom;
that. They’re very, very clever. To me a cult is them more enjoyable to watch. I could have The Fab Four in the
something that succeeds on a very narrow level, easily lived my life without ever hearing about studio together;
but it’s enough so that people in that narrow Sparks, but I’m really pleased that I know about I’m with the band:
bandwidth can enjoy it. I think they deserve these guys. Edgar Wright with
a little more than that. the Mael brothers,
Wright: Well, I think the thing that the With Get Back, Peter, you’re focusing on Russell (left) and
documentary shows is that, on a different level, a moment in time. Was that why you wanted
it wasn’t necessarily that they were being to do this? Ron (right).
innovative groundbreakers, but it was more out Jackson: Well, that’s really just because of the
of necessity, as a way to survive. They had to existence of this 55 or 60 hours of footage, which
figure out a way to survive without an advance sat on the shelf for years. So it wasn’t really
from a record label, so in the late ’80s they start a choice, particularly. It was an opportunity to
to record at home. Russell, the lead singer, was delve into this unseen footage and see what was
also the engineer. He was his own Glyn Johns there. There are so many stories around the Let
[The Beatles’ engineer]. It Be/Get Back stuff. The movie Let It Be and
Jackson: How did you find all those people to the stories surrounding it have all been used to
talk to? Did you just contact people cold, and say, represent the break-up of The Beatles, but to me
“Are you a Sparks fan?” it’s an incredibly productive time. In the space of
Wright: The first category was people they had 22 days, they’re recording the entire length of
worked with. That alone is a really prestigious the album, pretty much; they’re rehearsing about
list — Tony Visconti, Giorgio Moroder, Todd two-thirds of Abbey Road, half of All Things Must
Rundgren, and then all the band members and Pass, a whole bunch of McCartney’s solo songs.
ex-managers. The second phase was other artists Some days they were running through 50 or 60
or celebrity fans, like New Order, Duran Duran, different songs. So rather than looking at it as 22
Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols, Chris Difford days where The Beatles broke up, it should be
from Squeeze, who’d been on record saying redefined as being probably the most productive
they were influenced by Sparks. And then there days of their entire recording career. It’s very,
were people I just sort of assumed would be very intense. Certainly, there’s nothing in the
Sparks fans, because they have a similar footage, the 60 hours of stuff I’ve seen, plus
sensibility, like Mike Myers, Neil Gaiman, 130 hours of audio I’ve listened to... there isn’t
Patton Oswalt, Fred Armisen. That was an a moment where The Beatles are going to break
eye-opener for Ron and Russell. Russell had up. They’re not a band that wants to break up.
no idea that Neil Gaiman was a Sparks fan to Wright: I found it so hypnotic. It’s the last
the point where, as a 12-year-old, he had worked footage of this band. You feel, in an incredible
out stories revolving around what he thought way, that you’re a fly on the wall in the room
was happening on the album covers. where they’re just jamming through the last
Jackson: And how did they feel about having two albums.
a film made? They’re obviously big film buffs, but Jackson: Well, the difficulty with making
were they always on board with you doing it? Did the movie in a way is that I want to tell a story.
you have some persuading to do? A movie has to be a story. It’s not just a bunch of
Wright: When I asked them to do it, I wasn’t footage of The Beatles. It’s telling a story, and
aware that other people had asked and they’d a story that changes. It’s a story of a live concert
said no before. But they knew me and loved my
films and they said yes to me. They felt that
sometimes a documentary was like an obituary;
it was kind of an ossification of a band. My main
pitch to them was, I wanted to present them as
a going concern. The stuff they’re doing now is
just as good as the stuff they were doing in the
’70s. They have the opening film at the Cannes
Film Festival this year [Leos Carax’s Annette,
which they wrote], which is fucking great. But
what’s funny about how it came to be is that
I didn’t have a checklist on my wall, “I want to
do a music documentary.” I hadn’t even thought
about doing a documentary at all. But I would
start talking to my friends, saying, “Somebody
should do a Sparks documentary. They’re the
greatest, most influential band that don’t have
any music documentaries about them.” And then
at a 2017 Sparks gig I went to with Phil Lord,

78 AUGUST 2021

that never actually happens, and also the story

of a concert that does happen, on the roof, as the

plan changes. I’ve learned so much about this

period during the film. I’ve been a Beatles fan for

40 years, and you read all these books and they

all say different things. You don’t know what the

truth is. So in September 1968 they go to the big

stage at Twickenham and record the promo for

‘Hey Jude’ with Michael Lindsay-Hogg. That was

the first time they’d played to a live audience for

over two years. They really liked it and that gives

them the idea to do the whole of ‘Get Back’ [as it

was initially known; its name was later changed

to Let It Be]. Stage 1 at Twickenham is available

for three weeks for them to rehearse, but it’s

not a recording studio. And at the end of that

rehearsal, they’re going to stage a concert,

they’re going to have three days of performing

14 new songs, film them for a TV special. But it

doesn’t get to first base because George Harrison

quits the band. He was unhappy on multiple

fronts, but he didn’t like the idea of doing this big

concert. So he gets the band to agree that he’ll

come back and they’ll still do the songs they’ve

been rehearsing, but they’ll go into a recording

studio. They go into the Savile Row studio they

built for themselves and start rolling eight-track U

tape. Paul, in particular, is still keen to do

AUGUST 2021 79

some sort of a live performance. He thinks the Clockwise from above: Edgar Wright films the
energy of the live performance, which is the Mael brothers in 2018 at Narita Airport in Tokyo; Sparks
whole point of the ‘Get Back’ project, will be perform on stage; This town is big enough for both of
better if they get out of the studio. The easiest
way to get out of the studio is to go up on the them: Ron and Russell.
roof. And it succeeds. Of the five songs they do
on the roof, three of them end up on the LP. And roof and filmed them. We’ve got a lot of footage
they were a tight band on the roof. Man, they’re that we don’t know what it’s gonna get used for.
tight. You see the Hamburg Beatles clicking in Wright: What did the cops think about it now?
after the first couple of songs. When they get in Jackson: The main cop said it was the greatest
the groove, you see what a great band they were. regret of his life that he never got to arrest The
Wright: It’s amazing to me. There’s the Beatles and drag them away. He said he wasn’t
policeman who doesn’t care whether it’s The a particular Beatles fan, and didn’t care if he
Beatles, he’s dealing with a noise complaint. And stopped the concert.
I love that you go into split-screen at points. It’s
everything we want to see in real time. There’s Can you talk about your different
some excitement on the street, The Beatles are approaches, and injecting your authorial
playing, and then you get the cop doing his job. voices into the films?
Jackson: We didn’t cheat. We were very strict Wright: The good thing about Sparks is that
with ourselves. When you’re seeing them on the they have a sense of humour about themselves.
roof playing, and you go into the reception, the They’re very visual, their music is very
cops are there in real time. We thought, “This cinematic, and if I can equate my own films with
is the one time where you can actually present what they do, it’s really sincere and passionate,
the rooftop in real time, moment by moment, but can still have fun with the form. It was a sort
as it’s occurring.” Michael had six cameras on the of gift, really. There are not many bands where
roof with The Beatles, he had one camera on a you can say, “I’m going to do this film in the style
building across the road, he had two interviewing of Sparks.” And as I was making it I’m thinking,
people on the street and one behind a two-way “Maybe my style is quite similar to Sparks.
mirror in the reception room. So the cops didn’t Well, I guess I have been listening to this band
know they were being filmed. We’ve interviewed since I was five.”
both of those cops.

For the documentary?
Jackson: No, we’ve got no modern-day
interviews at all [in it]. We got them up on the

80 AUGUST 2021

Clockwise from Return Of The King. They read the books while
left: The Get they were in Rishikesh. Then Dennis arranged
a meeting between John Lennon and Stanley
Back restoration Kubrick, because they were hoping to get Stanley
team work on Kubrick after 2001. Stanley read the books, he
Michael took the meeting — I don’t think John Lennon
Lindsay-Hogg’s met with him — but Kubrick said it was
footage of the impossible to film.
famous rooftop Wright: And casting-wise, it would have been
gig in 1969; Paul as Frodo, George as…
Jackson: George was Gandalf. Ringo was Sam.
“Yeah, him, that’s John was Gollum, apparently. I have spoken to
my favourite Paul about it but he couldn’t remember the
Beatle”; casting itself.

McCartney rocks When you’re making a music documentary
out; George, John like this, is the ghost of Spinal Tap ever in
and Paul have a your thoughts? Is Marty DiBergi on your
jamming session. shoulder going, “No, don’t do that”?
Jackson: The Rutles is more in my world. It’s
a very, very accurate account of The Beatles.
Wright: I was sort of aware. I love music
documentaries and I like a lot of the music
documentary spoofs. But in my film, I wanted
to fuck around with that a little bit, so starting
the film with the FAQ section and doing visual
puns. People say things in documentaries like,
“Sparks really push the envelope,” so you have
a shot of Sparks pushing an envelope between
each other.

Opening spread portraits: James Brickwood, Marco Vittur Jackson: I have an interesting thought Wright: He was way ahead of the time, There’s an old adage in life: never meet
process because I’m taking footage shot by George Harrison. your heroes. Or, probably, make a music
Michael Lindsay-Hogg for a particular project Jackson: You mentioned earlier that it’s documentary about your heroes. I imagine
in 1969, and I’m repurposing the footage to do expanded to six hours. I would just point out that that doesn’t hold water for either of you.
something in 2021. Let It Be exists as a movie. about 18 months ago it was 18 hours long. The Wright: I think I knew that Ron and Russell
It’s a legitimate film, it’s a historical film, it’s the first cut was 18 hours. I don’t think I’ve expanded were the exception to the rule when I met them.
film Michael was able to produce in 1970 from it to six hours. I’ve reduced it to six hours. Pulling back the curtain and finding that Ron
the footage he shot. So I took the approach, I’m Wright: I would be remiss not to bring this and Russell were essentially the same people
making a documentary about the making of, up. The Beatles had a three-picture deal with was the reason I wanted to make it.
about Michael Lindsay-Hogg. It’s got multiple United Artists, right? They did A Hard Day’s Jackson: I’ve been very happy to, in a modest
storylines, obviously, about The Beatles, but Night, they did Help!. And one of the potential way, meet Paul and Ringo and Olivia [Harrison]
one of the storylines is Michael Lindsay-Hogg third projects was The Beatles doing Lord Of and Sean Lennon, and they’ve been very
shooting all this footage. I’m making a movie The Rings. supportive. But I was also very happy when
that wouldn’t have been possible in 1970. Jackson: Oh, I know. I know. I know a lot about I got through the 60 hours of film to find that
Wright: There’s a bit in the section I saw where this now. I found out a lot about it. Dennis O’Dell it was a film about four nice guys. You’re
Paul says, “We do the rooftop gig and then got The Lord Of The Rings, and he realised that looking at 60 hours of fly-on-the-wall footage
Michael’s got an ending.” he wasn’t going to get The Beatles to read all and you just never know if somebody is going
Jackson: Yeah! Michael says, “I have no ending three books. So he sent one book to each Beatle. to turn out to be a jerk or gently disappoint
for this film.” And George says, “Oh, you’ve got I think Paul got The Fellowship Of The Ring, you. It was almost the opposite. They were just
enough footage for six films.” George got The Two Towers and John got The regular, nice guys, even more so than I expected
them to be.

Finally, Peter, you haven’t yet had your
junket experience for Get Back, so we’re
going to be the first to ask you this. Did you
ever consider at any point calling it The Lord
Of The Ringos?
Peter Jackson: Well, I don’t think I’m gonna
hear it on the junket, because people have
got a bit more class. It’s a very Empire sort of
question. I don’t expect I’ll get that from The
New York Times.

THE SPARKS BROTHERS IS IN CINEMAS FROM 30 JULY.

THE BEATLES: GET BACK STREAMS ON DISNEY+ FROM

25, 26 AND 27 NOVEMBER

AUGUST 2021 81

82 AUGUST 2021

His movies are loaded with surprises. But M. Night Shyamalan’s own career has
been a corkscrewing, rollercoaster ride, too. As his latest, Old, prepares to make

our heads spin, he talks us through the lows and the highs

WORDS HANNA FLINT
ILLUSTRATION KINGSLEY NEBECHI

AUGUST 2021 83

MY FAMILY SAY I’m a clinical optimist,” M. Night Shyamalan says, Apple series Servant.
smiling from a director’s chair at a rather nondescript location Now with Old on the way, a new thriller about holiday-goers
outside his hometown of Philadelphia. “I will spin everything into
a positive place.” rapidly ageing on a secluded beach, along with an increasingly
positive reappraisal of some of his most maligned works, he
It’s certainly an attitude suited to a filmmaker whose career seems to be very much back in vogue. But as Shyamalan tells us,
has had more highs and lows over the past three decades than a true clinical optimist, he’s cool with any labels the world wants
a ride on Nemesis at Alton Towers. Since his breakout film, The to throw at him…
Sixth Sense, Shyamalan’s name has become synonymous with
high-concept, character-driven stories that have either had What’s the biggest misconception about you as a filmmaker?
him lauded for his masterful originality (Unbreakable, Signs) That I make horror movies! I understand how that happened,
or denounced for his penchant for twist endings or, as some because I make a mixture of genres and the most high-octane of
critics have deemed it, pretentious storytelling (Lady In The genres is how you’re going to get defined. So, if you add 15 per cent
Water, The Happening). horror into your movies, I guess you’re a horror filmmaker.

2008 to 2013 was a dark period for the Indian-American When you were promoting The Visit, you said you didn’t
filmmaker, with critical and commercial flops mounting up. like that you were known as the ‘Twist Guy’.
But, having taken “a loan against my house” to finance found- The tendency is to be reductionary. I get that there has to be
footage thriller The Visit, its $98.5 million box-office haul in a shorthand to explain things, by the nature of saying there are
2015 paved the way for not just his cinematic comeback but twists or this and that. But it’s like me saying, “Hey, I’m gonna
critical acclaim on the small screen, with sinister family-mystery

84 AUGUST 2021

throw you a surprise party, okay — it’s going to be really
surprising.” It undermines the whole thing. I wonder, had
I made The Sixth Sense now, would it have any impact at all?
There’s so much chess-playing before I even say [what movie
I’m making].

There are already a load of theories online for what the twist
could be in Old.
When I think about my movies now, there’s a story that we can
promote and then there’s another story that we can’t promote.
That story is for when you come to watch and experience in the
movie theatre.

The reaction to the trailer has been enthusiastic.
The response has been so amazing from around the world. There’s
basically no superstars, immigrant accents on film, an original
story. And yet we’re going up against every sequel known to man
over the summer. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but it’s
exciting that there is still a place for originality.

We know it’s about families on a tropical getaway where they
find themselves ageing rapidly and their entire lives reduced
into a single day. What more can you tell us, and what does it
say about where you are as a filmmaker?
It’s new for me, the idea of making a movie not in Philadelphia.
To be in this vast landscape, outside all day. It’s still a contained
thriller, but it’s on this beach. Mike [Gioulakis], the
cinematographer, and I tried to think of things a little bit
differently. I’ve done it in a slightly different headspace. There
was a [film] that was offered to me called Troy and I was really
taken by its screenplay that was so beautifully written as one
war sequence from the beginning all the way through for two
hours. [In Old], I wanted it to feel like one long sequence of
a movie, and if I’ve achieved what I wanted, you’ll feel this
cadence, this movement.

Clockwise from How long will it be if it’s a sort of one-shot film?
far left: “What It’s funny you should mention this. I don’t know if there’s a math
did I say about thing going on, but The Sixth Sense is 107 minutes. Unbreakable is
sunblock, 107 minutes, Signs is 107 minutes, The Village is 107 minutes and
sweetie!” strangely, Old, is right around 107 minutes. We’re a little bit over
Guy (Gael García and this morning, I just thought of another little trim and it’s gonna
Bernal) with end up being 107.
rapidly ageing
daughter Maddox Is it subconscious?
(Thomasin I guess the audience and I bounce off each other in a certain way.
McKenzie) in Old; How long can I hold something: the minimalism, the quiet, the
Rufus Sewell as dread, and the taking you up and down? How many times can
Charles; Director I scare you, make you emotional? There’s a cadence to that
M. Night rhythm. Maybe it’s just the way my ear hears storytelling. I don’t
Shyamalan with understand it. It can’t be a coincidence — this would be five movies!
cast and crew on
set; Maddox and You’re working with new collaborators, too.
Trent (Alex Wolff).
I’m trying to provoke myself, think in different ways and trying

to be vulnerable. That’s why with Old I have a brand-new

composer [Trevor Gureckis]. He’s barely done anything! I have

a new editor [Brett M. Reed], a new costume designer [Servant’s

Caroline Duncan]. Everything is brand-new. I’m taking risks.

I grab people that haven’t really done anything; all the actors have

to audition for me. I keep on trying new things to keep myself U

thinking new.

AUGUST 2021 85

What was your old self like, when you first broke into This page, top left to bottom:
Hollywood? Olivia DeJonge and Kathryn Hahn in
The first film [Praying With Anger] I shot in India when I was 21. The Visit; Rory Culkin, Joaquin
We got into the Toronto Film Festival, and that was a big achievement. Phoenix and Abigail Breslin in
If I go back and think about my instincts as a filmmaker, I have two Signs; Shyamalan and Bruce Willis
parts of me. The family-film part of me that’s very sincere and on the set of The Sixth Sense;
emotional, in terms of almost speaking to children. Then there’s the Samuel L. Jackson in Glass; Willis
other side of me, which is very disturbing and provocative. My next and Haley Joel Osment keep an eye
movie, [Wide Awake], which I did for Miramax and Harvey Weinstein, out for dead people. As you do.
was a difficult experience. I was still in this family headspace but
then I switched and wrote The Sixth Sense. It felt easy to go dark
and suspenseful. It just tumbles out of me; I can do it effortlessly.

1999 was the year The Sixth Sense was released, but also
Stuart Little and She’s All That, which you wrote too. How
did that happen?
I was writing them all together. Harvey [Weinstein] — we can speak
ill of him now — wouldn’t let me go make The Sixth Sense. He
owned my writing, so I did the rewrites for She’s All That so I could
go make it. I like romcoms. Maybe there was a different world
where I was the ‘Romcom Guy’.

They’re doing He’s All That. Have they called you in
for rewrites?
They didn’t ask me! There’s a lot of stories that have romance in
the deep centre. In fact, in Old, there’s a lot of romance. And then
I wrote Stuart Little: we were having a baby, and I wanted to write
a story for this child that hasn’t been born yet. So that was a wild
year of writing, just me in a small, two-bedroom apartment and
writing all those three movies, feeling the joy of creating and
saying, “Hey, this is a children’s movie. Hey, this is a romcom.
Hey, this is a thriller. I’m just loving telling stories.”

What was it like after The Sixth Sense came out?
I was writing Unbreakable on the day it opened, and I distinctly
remember being at the computer in my office, reading the New
York Times review, which was bad. That’ll be close to the last review
I’ve read. So even at that moment, there was a sense of just putting
my head down and figuring out who this guy David Dunn is.
Hopefully someone will allow me to make this movie, was the
headspace I was in.

But then you went to the Oscars and were being billed as tell a story and yet I’m getting empirical data saying the opposite. Alamy, Apple TV+, Landmark, Shutterstock, Universal Top right: Devil,
“the next Spielberg” on the cover of Newsweek. Sometimes you are not going to be in sync with cultural norms. based on a story
It was weird. Our movie was dumped in August, where it was Now that I know a lot about storytelling and understand my instincts, by Shyamalan.
supposed to die, essentially. It was too dramatic for a horror movie. I tack towards that dissonant note at the end of the movie. It’s a tricky Inset: Rupert Grint
Who’s gonna get this downer ending? All of these things were note to send an audience out on, but that open-endedness wasn’t and co in hit TV
hanging over us. So [the success] was slowly emerging and unappealing in other countries. That was the era where I started to series Servant.
surprising. By the time people could recognise me and were coming see my movies perform extremely well internationally. There were Above: A ripped
to see the next film, it took many years for me to understand all of some really interesting things that I grappled with, even to this day, James McAvoy
that. I take it as such a gift. I tell [my daughters] to show respect of understanding how to make stories for everybody. in Glass.
everywhere we go. If a fan comes over to the table and says, “Hey,
I love your movies,” I go, “They paid for one brick in our house, you
show them respect.” That’s not something you take for granted.

What was that post-Sixth Sense period like, making You’ve talked about filmmakers having ‘accents’. Would you
Unbreakable and Signs? say you lost yours making big studio films such as The Last
I felt great about Unbreakable and that’s not how it was received. Airbender and After Earth?
The head of Disney at that time called me and said, “Hey, it got a C Yeah. Those films were such wonderful opportunities but to make
from [market-research firm] CinemaScore and the audiences just $100-million movies comes with a certain obligation. I want my
aren’t digging it.” Everything in me is saying that’s as good as I can freedom to be weird. I tack towards minimalism and I keep getting

86 AUGUST 2021

And I thought you didn’t read reviews anymore!
I was just kidding! That’s all, I was playing around —
“Can’t you take a joke?!” Woody Allen, Spike Lee,
they were the leaders for how you can write, direct,
and act sometimes in your movies, but because the
ideas that I’m drawn to get presented in this big
way around the world it’s harder to just play a role.
I remember being in the first preview of Signs and
when I came on the screen, everybody reacted like,
“Whoa.” So I have to be cognisant that I’m not pulling
in and out of the piece. I just try to find the most
organic way to be part of the movie and try to make
fun of myself a bit in the process.

How do you feel about your perceived failures?
All the artists that I admire went through a very
uncomfortable relationship with the standard bearers
of that art form at that time. Stanley Kubrick, none
of his movies were reviewed well. Emily Brontë, she
died and thought she was a failure. There’s a part of
me where I just have to speak the way I speak and take
every hit that comes. There are millions of people
watching me saying, “You’re failing,” but I didn’t
even take the test that you said I failed. When someone
comes and says, “You stink,” and that’s hurting me, it’s
ego and I don’t need that. Please kill that part of me because the
only thing I need is to be able to look at my material and say, “How
do I make that character ‘explode’? What is it about a 27mm lens
at this moment?” When we shot Old, we checked every format of
how to shoot. We checked every digital camera, every film format,
65mm everything. Why did I choose film over digital? There’s
something about the chemical process on film that captures
the essence of water and the complexity of the beach. Digital
tries to capture too many things and it feels cold. This is the
thing that I should be concentrating on, not whether the LA
Times likes me. So I’m just gonna keep on doing it, hoping I just
wear them out.

asked to do big movies and I’m like, “You don’t want me to do this.” And you’ve had considerable box-office success, despite
Now, when I get offered something, I go, “What is the lowest mixed reviews, plus a great response to TV show Servant
number so that you have the freedom that you need to make the from audiences and peers including Stephen King and
movie?” For me, making very low-budget movies, which came Guillermo del Toro.
directly as a response to that era, I wouldn’t have had that clarity. It’s been wonderful. My takeaway is if I’m okay with being
I had an idea for Old yesterday and I just executed it. It’s my movie, dissonant and the audience is feeling that, my hope is that it’s
I can just do it. There was a thing I wanted so I flew to the just between me and them from here on out. I don’t want to
Dominican Republic, I shot it and I put it in. That’s that. What have these instincts and then feel bad about them. Where
ultimately will happen is that these movies will have a singularity once I’m done with this story, I then let [it] go and it’s the
to them. The crooked nose that makes you beautiful, you know? audience’s to find and hold on to, or however they react to it.
At least you could see me better. That would be a beautiful existence rather than worrying about
the prizes.
We’ve seen you in your movies a lot. You were the lead in
your debut. Why do you think there has been animosity But you’re cool with being the ‘Thriller Guy’ now, right?
when you’ve had bigger roles such as in Lady In The Water? That’s an interesting thing that you’re bringing up. That has
I’ll take the responsibility on that one. I killed a critic... changed. This pull to do all types of genres, that feeling of, “Hey,
I don’t want to commit to this,” has changed. I have found that —
let’s call this era of films The Visit, Split, Glass, and now Old
— there’s so much breadth in there, that I can do the comedy,
I can do the romance, I can do the drama, and it’s still a thriller.
There’s a lot of movement.

OLD IS IN CINEMAS FROM 23 JULY

AUGUST 2021 87

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE CASE OF BOOK-TO-FILM. INSTEAD,

SHREK GOT STUCK FOR A DECADE IN A DEVELOPMENT SWAMP.

TWENTY YEARS ON FROM RELEASE, ITS CREATORS REVEAL HOW THEY
FINALLY CRACKED THE BILLION-DOLLAR OGRE

WORDS BETH WEBB

88 AUGUST 2021

AUGUST 2021 89

Here: “Donkey,
two things, okay?

Shut. Up.”
Below: Swamp
fever — Shrek has
a marvellous time
in his mud shower.

ONCE UPON A time, in the faraway land of dialogue, leaving Shrek quite literally voiceless. studio Amblimation. But the project never made
Hollywood, a first-time director lost his cool. A revolving door of writers had been wrestling it past development.
After a tumultuous couple of years stressing over with the story of this gauche, snot-green
Shrek, Andrew Adamson, a maverick former swamp-dweller and one by one had thrown in Three years later, in 1994, DreamWorks
digital animator from New Zealand, saw no the towel, unable to crack open Katzenberg’s SKG was founded by Spielberg, Katzenberg
happily ever after in sight. “I went to Jeffrey bold idea of an edgy, envelope-pushing fairy tale. and music producer David Geffen, and Shrek
[Katzenberg, the film’s producer] and I said, Shrek was a sinking ship, and Adamson wanted once again nudged its way back onto the table,
‘I can’t do this anymore,’” remembers the permission to board the lifeboat. thanks to producer John H. Williams. The book,
filmmaker. “But I’d never quit anything before which used Shrek’s gross-out humour and short
in my life, so I asked him to fire me.” Yet Katzenberg refused, Adamson was temper as its main currency, aligned with
begrudgingly preserved, and with his fellow Katzenberg’s mission to make DreamWorks
The self-labelled “outsider” with Led first-time director Vicky Jenson and their a home for more mature animation. During
Zeppelin-length blond hair had been fighting an motley crew of creatives, at last gave the cuddly those early conversations, screenwriter Terry
uphill battle with Shrek ever since Katzenberg monster his fairy-tale ending. Shrek came Rossio was excited. “My writing partner Ted
first persuaded him to come on board in 1997. belching into the world as a new kind of hero: Elliott and I were in the very first meetings,”
The film’s parent studio, DreamWorks SKG — a perpetually shabby one, who wore a wonky he remembers. “It was just John Williams,
which had been established just a year prior to smile beneath mushroom-shaped ears, and [producer] Aron Warner, Jeffrey, Ted and
Shrek’s development — was underperforming who under layers of tough, emotional armour, myself. Whenever a project starts up it’s very
artistically and financially. Pressure to save the just wanted the world to see him as he saw cool; it’s like watching a stone hitting a pool,
studio was mounting. And then the film’s original himself. Twenty years after its release, Shrek and then you watch the ripples go out.”
lead voice actor, Chris Farley, died of a speedball continues to touch and even empower viewers
overdose after recording 80 per cent of his as an endearingly shambolic, eyeball-gobbling Those ripples would take a while to form.
symbol of self-acceptance. Viewers who still
believe him when he tells Donkey that
“sometimes, things are more than they appear”,
under a giant, glowing moon.

...

BACK IN 1991, SHREK LOOKED

set to be a different film entirely. The book it was
based upon — William Steig’s crude yet sweet
fairy tale about a fire-breathing ogre and an ugly
princess — had fallen into the hands of Steven
Spielberg. With Bill Murray and Steve Martin
in mind for Shrek and Donkey respectively,
Spielberg intended to turn the book into a
traditional animation through his short-lived

90 AUGUST 2021

Clockwise from
left: Get outta my

swamp!; Mike
Myers recording

Shrek’s voice;
Co-directors
Andrew Adamson
and Vicky Jenson
in 2001; The
(not-so) odd
couple: Princess
Fiona (voiced by
Cameron Diaz)
comes clean

to Shrek.

Katzenberg had started up DreamWorks after Many people fought and lost in the great production took a nosedive. There was a real
a heated departure from his ten-year-stint at battle to solve Shrek. Henry Selick, director of
Disney, which resulted in a much-publicised The Nightmare Before Christmas, was attached crisis of consciousness, and this question of,
lawsuit against his former mentor Michael for a spell, then replaced in 1997 by newcomers
Eisner (who bears a startling resemblance to Kelly Asbury and Adamson, who had only ‘What kind of film are we? Are we even a
Shrek’s antagonist Lord Farquaad, but more on agreed to come on board initially for a three-
that later). With DreamWorks, the producer month probation period (he ended up staying comedy?’” In a period that Adamson describes
wanted to put his Mickey Mouse days firmly on for four-and-a-half years). Farley passed away
behind him and push animation into exciting, that same year, and in 1998, Asbury quit to work as “just kind of waffling along”, the writers tried
groundbreaking territory. “Jeffrey was trying on another DreamWorks animation: Spirit:
to make adult animation — which is not to be Stallion Of The Cimarron. Vicky Jenson was and failed to crack Shrek’s personality. “The
confused with adult animation,” Adamson quips. bumped up from her role of storyboard artist
“It was video animation that was aimed at an to take his place. “Kelly had hit that story wall,” character was way overworked,” says Miller. “He
older audience.” she explains sympathetically. “It happens in
almost every movie. You just hit that wall and went through every bit of evolution imaginable:
Whereas Katzenberg’s vision was clear, you can’t figure it out.”
its reception was mixed. DreamWorks’ debut unlikeable, angry, goofy.” Countless storylines
animations The Prince Of Egypt and Antz The biggest problem seemed to be figuring
earned critical praise for their technological out who Shrek was after Farley died. “I heard his were explored, but without a solid Shrek at
accomplishments and in Antz’s case, its recordings, and he was amazing,” remembers
Marxism-infused humour. Their global takings Miller. “After that happened, I know that the heart of them, each fell flat. Rossio, who
wilted in comparison to Pixar, however, and the
studio’s third venture, The Road To El Dorado, temporarily left the project after a plot in which
was a major flop. “Pixar had a very definite,
singular voice. DreamWorks was trying to find Shrek aspires to become a knight was proposed,
its voice, but it wasn’t working commercially,”
says Adamson. Having tried to establish itself recalls curiously checking his hard drive after
as a studio known for prestige animation, those
working on Shrek questioned how this scrappy, the film had been released. “There were 5,000
fractured fairy tale would fit in. “DreamWorks
were making very grand, epic, earnest pages of screenplay. When you consider that the
productions which were very beautiful but very
serious,” explains Chris Miller, a story artist final script is basically 85 pages for an 85-minute
on the film who also provided its additional
dialogue and the voice of the Magic Mirror. movie… that’s a lot of work. I’m pretty sure that
“Shrek became known as the ugly stepsister of
the studio. It was the film about the green guy Jeffrey went on record saying that it was the U
who made jokes about bowel movements.”
most difficult thing he ever worked on.”

AUGUST 2021 91

By now, the film’s problematic reputation
was widespread, and the terms “being Shreked”,
or “being sent to Siberia”, were feared amongst
those working in animation at the time. “I had
been one of the production designers on El
Dorado and DreamWorks said to me that they
could really use my help on Shrek,” Jenson
remembers. “I was like [panicked], ‘You don’t
have to put me anywhere, I can get a job on my
own!’ I didn’t want to get sent to Siberia.” Yet,
just like Shrek, the team didn’t give up hope,
and soon, being “sent to Siberia” took on a new
meaning entirely.

...

UNDER JENSON AND ADAMSON’S Clockwise from Disney a little bit, and an opportunity to
above: Lord have fun like that in a way that I hadn’t seen
watch, the creative castaways slowly began in a long time.”
to flourish, their unkempt creative energy Farquaad (John
manifesting into comedy and heart. “We became Lithgow) in It was within this period that Shrek as
the island of misfit toys,” recalls Adamson the famous a character also clicked into place. “It wasn’t
fondly. “That really was, to me, the voice of until they found that vulnerability, because
Shrek.” The team congregated in DreamWorks’ Gingerbread Man he has a hole in his heart, that he became
basement in California, where they were largely scene; Beauty and appealing,” explains Miller. Eddie Murphy and
left to their own devices. “Our editing suite had Cameron Diaz had been cast as Donkey and
three basins in it. I don’t know why they were the beast; For Princess Fiona, so next came the task of filling
there,” Adamson laughs. The outsider delighted once, Donkey is Farley’s shoes. Mike Myers was already a hit with
in working with people who were hired because lost for words; the writers thanks to his long-standing stint on
“they didn’t quite fit” on other projects. “It was Saturday Night Live, and with some convincing,
like we were making the film in our garage,” More tea, Katzenberg bagged the Canadian actor straight
Jenson concurs. “Jeffrey and the producers Pinocchio? off the back of Austin Powers: International Man
would fly in, we’d present them stuff and then Having a cuppa Of Mystery. The gentle Scottish brogue that he
they’d go away, so we weren’t under the studio’s with The Big Bad
nose all the time.” Wolf and The
Three Little Pigs.
It was within this space that Cody Cameron,
Chris Miller and Conrad Vernon — aka The (Peter Pan, Pinocchio, the Fairy Godmother),
Three Cs — came up with most of Shrek’s and the Magic Kingdom-esque Lordship of
comedy, such as the Gingerbread Man’s Duloc, with a catchy theme song not dissimilar
interrogation scene. The sequence — in which to ‘It’s A Small World (After All)’. Ruling over
the foot-sized talking biscuit is tortured by Lord it, a waist-high dictator with the same jutting
Farquaad — was conjured up and eventually chin and blue eyes as Katzenberg’s former
voiced by Vernon after bringing the idea to mentor, Michael Eisner. “There were a few
one of countless basement pitching sessions. things that remained from the original draft
“I attribute a lot of the tone of the film to when I arrived,” says Adamson diplomatically
Chris, Cody and Conrad,” says Adamson. “The about Katzenberg’s vengeful humour. “Obviously
Gingerbread Man sequence doesn’t have to be the similarities to Eisner are apparent and
in the movie, but it’s one of the most memorable we never questioned whether we should
scenes. We forced it in and people laughed, and remove them.” Whereas the director is
so we got to keep it.” adamant that they weren’t parodying the
rival studio directly, Miller interpreted things
The writers and directors cite everything differently. “There was a nod to torturing
from The Princess Bride to Billy Connolly and
Monty Python as their comedic influences at the
time. Jenson had worked on The Ren & Stimpy
Show with Vernon, and pushed for more of their
absurdist brand of humour to feature in the film.
“Jeffrey didn’t want us to aim for the young, so as
a benchmark, Andrew and I just made sure that
what we were writing wouldn’t get us in trouble
with our moms.” Cue brimstone fart jokes and
blue remarks about Snow White (“Although she
lives with seven other men, she’s not easy”), not
to mention Farquaad’s name, which Adamson
alludes to be, as rumour has suggested, a take
on the word “fuckwad”.

Then, of course, there were the satirised
characters formerly associated with Disney

92 AUGUST 2021

Alamy, Getty Images, Shutterstock lent to Shrek would complete the character, Top to bottom: Cameron Diaz voices Princess CASTING
though despite the often-told legend that Myers DOUBT
insisted on rerecording all of Shrek’s lines in the Fiona; Donkey gives Fiona some advice; Eddie
accent, Jenson remembers it differently. IT DOESN’T ALWAYS TAKE A TRAGEDY
Murphy has a blast as the wisecracking Donkey. TO REPLACE A VOICE ACTOR
“At one point in the story Shrek was
reading a letter from his father,” the director a fairy tale,” says Jenson. “We went from being PADDINGTON
reveals. “Mike decided that he would read the sent to Siberia to Palo Alto and working in
letter in his own father’s Scottish accent. It this garage to being invited to Cannes and Colin Firth was Paddington
was amazing.” Though hesitant that he would seeing those initial reactions coming through. originally but, “It slowly just
sound like his character Fat Bastard in Austin It really was overwhelming.” became clear that Paddington
Powers, Jenson and Adamson talked him does not have the voice of
into using the accent for the whole film. Beyond the accolades and box-office a very handsome older man,”
“We recorded the whole movie and had triumphs, at its heart Shrek was a film made by said director Paul King. It was
a screening at DreamWorks,” Jenson says. a group of outsiders who found each other, and a “sad realisation that he
“Steven Spielberg came to it and said, ‘This got to make something brave and new on their simply doesn’t have my voice,”
is one of the funniest, sweetest screenings own terms. “We went against the norm and we said Firth. Ben Whishaw,
I’ve ever been in, but does Mike have to do did it in a really punk-rock way,” says Conrad conversely, fitted like a snug
that accent?’” So Myers re-recorded the part Vernon. “I like to think that we were like what duffle coat.
in his native Canadian lilt. Spielberg attended Warner Bros. were to Disney. The Bugs Bunny to
the test screening with the new voice, and, Mickey Mouse. We were the bad boys.” Adamson 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY
as Jenson recalls, said, “This was one of the jokes about “brogres” — a subculture of devout
funniest, sweetest movies I’ve ever seen. Shrek fans who exist largely in the memosphere Nigel Davenport was the first
Mike needs an accent.” — but is more touched by the deeper connection to voice murderous computer
between fans and their reluctant hero that he’s HAL 9000. However, after
Finally, there was the act of physically witnessed first-hand. “It’s kind of wonderful, a few weeks the ever-exacting
bringing Shrek — plus his human and furry because the people that identify with Shrek Stanley Kubrick found his
counterparts — to life. This would be the first know that they are other, and that they aren’t English accent too distracting
time that humans (and a humanoid) would be accepted,” he says. “They identified with Shrek and severed Davenport’s
shown as leading characters via CG animation. as young children because they already sensed proverbial oxygen hose.
“The biggest challenge was achieving what that there was something different about them. Canadian actor Douglas Rain
people call ‘the uncanny valley’,” Jenson I love that. That’s one of the best things that was flown to Borehamwood
explains. “We’re so attuned to the way humans could happen out of this film.” Shrek may have for post-production.
blink, breathe, twitch; the smallest things that saved DreamWorks and given it the voice it
indicate that person is alive, and computer so desperately needed, but this cantankerous, DESPICABLE ME 2
versions of them can just feel off-putting.” misjudged ogre has in turn given a voice to
DreamWorks called in Pacific Data Images, so many more. Dastardly restaurateur Eduardo
who developed a breakthrough programme Pérez belonged to Al Pacino,
called Shaper that could not only achieve skin, but he quit five weeks before
hair, fur and clothes, but their imperfections release, with co-director Chris
as well. Now, with his laughter lines and Renaud blaming “creative
wrinkled tunic, Shrek not only acted like differences”: Pacino and the
a misfit — he looked like one too. team didn’t “see eye to eye”.
Benjamin Bratt was parachuted
... in, recording the entire part in
just five days — an animation
AFTER THE COMPLETED FILM’S angel if ever there was one.

first successful test screening, Katzenberg HER
took Adamson to one side. “He said to me:
‘You should be prepared for what happens Samantha Morton was the
next, because this may only happen once in voice of AI virtual assistant
your career.’” What did happen next Adamson Samantha in Spike Jonze’s Her,
describes as a “whirlwind”, starting with a trip recording on set before Jonze
to Cannes, where Shrek was the first animated changed his mind during
film since Peter Pan in 1953 to compete for editing. “We realised that what
the Palme d’Or, and received a ten-minute Samantha and I had done
standing ovation. At the Oscars, the film won together wasn’t what the
the first-ever Academy Award for Best Animated character needed,” explained
Feature; on the broadcast, Shrek and Donkey Jonze later. Scarlett Johansson
sat gussied up in the audience, their CG would fulfil Jonze’s vision.
shoulders rubbing shoulders with human
guests. Eddie Murphy’s performance as the BRAVE
nervously needy Donkey earned him the
first-ever BAFTA nomination for a voice Reese Witherspoon, original
role. Then there was the money: the film voice of Brave’s Scottish
took over $42 million in its opening weekend princess, couldn’t quite master
and a further $442 million at the global box Merida’s Highland tones.
office over its theatrical run. “It really was Glasgow’s Kelly Macdonald
had no such problems. “I tried
to do a Scottish accent once.
It was bad,” Witherspoon
admitted in 2017. “I had to quit
the movie. It’s not my finest
moment.” ALEX GODFREY

AUGUST 2021 93



GODS
AMONG US

In our regular series, we pay tribute

to the towering, megawatt stars

who still roam Hollywood

This month: The perpetually
underestimated poet-warrior

KEANU REEVES

WORDS PRISCILLA PAGE ILLUSTRATION CHRISTOPHER LEE LYONS

BACKGROUNDED BY DARKNESS and the many, he became Ted. The punishment for his
silhouette of trees, best friends Mike and Scott sit most excellent performance is that his work has
fireside like a couple of cowboys in an old Western. been misunderstood and underestimated by
Mike confesses his love to Scott, but the love is a contingent of vocal critics who’ve mistaken him
unrequited, or maybe repressed; either way, Mike for just one of his countless characters. Considering
is bereft, but Scott offers kindness and acceptance, the calibre of filmmakers Reeves has worked with,
a quiet hug. Later on in Gus Van Sant’s My Own from Coppola to Bigelow, it’s a hang-up that seems
Private Idaho, Keanu Reeves’ Scott will leave River to belong to journalists exclusively. A 1994 piece in
Phoenix’s Mike behind, transforming from The Observer referred to him as “a not-too-deep-
loving confidant to cold politician’s son. Reeves hunk” in the headline, its writer suggesting, “He is
plays Scott Favor as warm and present, yet a pretty face that is just a pretty face.” It seemed
unknowable. Caring, yet calculating. Scott is not like Reeves might be doomed forever — or at
a villain, but certainly a shade darker for Reeves least for a while — to be the San Dimas doofus.
so early in his career. The character’s twofold
nature augured the kind of roles Reeves would But Reeves is, and has always been, much
shine in down the line, a snapshot capturing the more than that. A leading man, a character actor,
full spectrum of the actor’s range. an action star. He’s beaten Death and the Devil.
Been to hell and back. Saved the world a few
Despite nuanced performances like this, times. He’s played in just about every genre:
Keanu Reeves would be haunted by a single comedies, dramas, romcoms, sci-fi, sci-fi
indelible image for several years: that of Ted romcoms, period pieces, thrillers, actioners,
‘Theodore’ Logan. A character who Reeves horror, noir, mumblecore. Across three decades,
played first in 1989 to such perfection that, for he’s headlined three revered franchises. From U

AUGUST 2021 95

THE BOX
OFFICE

Keanu Reeves’ top five
money-makers*

TOY STORY 4

$1.07 billion

THE MATRIX RELOADED

$742 million

THE MATRIX

$466 million

THE MATRIX
REVOLUTIONS

$427 million

SPEED

$350 million

* Global box office, according
to BoxOfficeMojo.com

Shakespeare to kung fu, indie films to father Samuel Nowlin Reeves, Keanu Reeves Above: Meet
blockbusters, he’s never really been pigeonholed bounced around everywhere from Sydney the Wyld
or typecast, despite our best efforts. to New York City, finally landing in Toronto, Stallions, aka
where he spent most of his youth. Reeves the most
His otherworldly quality has made him perfect didn’t consider himself a good student: he excellent
for, well, other worlds, in roles like an occult struggled with reading because he was dyslexic dudes Bill
detective, a hacker messiah, the alien Klaatu, and describes himself as a high-energy (Alex Winter)
the son of Satan, a mnemonic courier, a post- youngster. “I did a lot of pretending as a child. and Ted
apocalyptic cult leader, a grieving assassin in a It was my way of coping with the fact that (Reeves).
noir fantasy, even the Buddha. Heroes, antiheroes, I didn’t really feel like I fit in,” he said in Right:
underdogs, Byronic heroes, straight-up villains: The London Magazine. “But when I was 15, From Ted to
he convinces as both The One and the Everyman, I started doing some acting and I got hooked, Tod, slacker
Good Ted and Evil Ted. While he played Speed’s because it was like hockey in that it allowed boyfriend of
man of action, Jack Traven, he learned lines for me to be somebody different.” He’d considered Julie (Martha
Shakespeare’s man of inaction, Hamlet. And he a career in ice hockey, even earning the Plimpton)
possesses an inherent likeability that deepens nickname ‘The Wall’ for being such an effective in 1989’s
each of his characters, heightening the pathos of goalie, but playing Mercutio in a student Parenthood.
his tragic heroes, adding complexity to his villains. production of Romeo And Juliet changed
Though Ted Logan has been seared onto our his mind and nabbed him an agent. As Reeves
retinas, Keanu Reeves has played it all: devils, told Premiere in 2005, “The story I tell is
saviours and men caught somewhere in-between. being 15 and going up to my mother and
saying, ‘Is it okay if I become an actor?’ And
Born in Beirut, Lebanon, to English costume she said, ‘Of course.’”
designer Patricia Taylor and Chinese-Hawaiian
After attending four different high schools,
Reeves dropped out when he was 16 to act. His

96 AUGUST 2021

Above: With
Gary Oldman
in Bram
Stoker’s
Dracula
(1992). Left:
The 21-
year-old
Reeves in
1986’s
River’s Edge.

first commercial was for Coca-Cola, for which Toronto Sun even called him a “budding De
he played a cyclist, going full Method and Niro”. In Permanent Record, he was a young
shaving his legs for the part. He’d also been man grappling with the suicide of a friend,
a correspondent for a Canadian news show for a time-travelling babe-in-the-woods in Bill
kids called Going Great, where he reported on & Ted’s Excellent Adventure, a sweet music
everything from teddy-bear conventions to teacher in Dangerous Liaisons, and a stoner
horseback riding lessons. Shortly thereafter, he with a troubled conscience in his bleak
began taking acting classes at night in New York, breakthrough, River’s Edge. In Bram Stoker’s
driving eight hours to attend them. When he Dracula, his most maligned role, Reeves’
finally moved to Los Angeles to pursue his career greatest offence is that his Jonathan Harker is
in 1986, all he had was $3,000 and a 1969 British quiet among actors at full volume, his restraint
racing-green Volvo. out of place in an otherwise operatic production.
But Coppola had wanted a matinée idol for
One writer for USA Today insisted Reeves Harker, and there was no better man for the job
only played “dopes” in the early years, but it than Keanu Reeves.
wasn’t quite so simple. There were certainly
stoners, ne’er-do-wells, disaffected youths. The In 1989’s Parenthood, Reeves played Tod
teenage outsider was a role he played well, Higgins, the teenage boyfriend of Martha
but it wasn’t the only character he could play. Plimpton’s Julie. Tod is a thorn in the side of
Some critics saw his potential early on: the Julie’s mother, Helen (Dianne Wiest). But he U

AUGUST 2021 97

surprises Helen when he susses out what’s and range, My Own Private Idaho is Defence as Prince Siddhartha in Little Buddha, and
been troubling her young son Garry (Joaquin Exhibit A. In 1991 alone, Reeves did Van Richard Linklater would identify it years later
Phoenix), and Helen says maybe Garry needs Sant’s poignant drama, comedy, and his first when he chose him as his lead in A Scanner
a man around. Toying idly with a carton of action film. Darkly. Reeves himself understood it, telling
milk in Helen’s kitchen, Tod says it depends a Premiere interviewer in 1994 that he was “the
on the man, and wonders what makes a good Keanu Reeves has helped fundamentally alter kind of male equivalent of the female ingénue.
father, revealing to Helen that his own father modern American actioners for the better, and I’ve always played innocents... My career
abused him. In this scene, Reeves seamlessly it all began with Point Break, Kathryn Bigelow’s through-line is innocence, in a variety of
transitions from Tod the child to Tod the man sun-kissed tribute to adrenaline and sublimated different genres.”
and back, from buoyant to melancholy in an male desire. With FBI Agent Johnny Utah,
instant, imparting layers to a seemingly Bigelow broke Reeves away from his disaffected And 1994’s Speed was his coming-of-
one-dimensional character. It’s an unexpected, teen characters. It’s the film that proved he age film, his official cinematic transition away
redemptive moment. There is a glimpse of was a bona fide action star, and his casting was from “impossible innocence” into adulthood.
wisdom and of vulnerability, with self- a hard-won battle waged by Bigelow, whose faith If Point Break made Reeves an action
awareness and humour. It’s a testament to in the young actor was rewarded in spades. star, then Speed made him a megastar,
Reeves’ talent that he can play the (supposed) a household name. The film’s success made
fool with such subtlety and pathos. At the time, Bigelow told the Los Angeles critics believe he could be the heir to the
Times, “I think there’s a purity and an Schwarzenegger/Stallone throne. But he was
Reeves defied the “dope” label once again innocence to him that translates — which, not like the action stars of yore, not even really
when he did Shakespeare in the early ’90s: coupled with a very strong persona, is like Van Damme or Seagal. Arnie’s and Sly’s
first as Don John in Kenneth Branagh’s Much a winning combination.” Bigelow was not the trademarks were giant muscles and punching
Ado About Nothing, his debut as a villain, and only filmmaker to recognise this quality. — as filmmaker, second-unit director and
then again in My Own Private Idaho. Gus Van Bernardo Bertolucci said his “impossible Reeves’ former stunt double Chad Stahelski
Sant’s film was like Shakespeare’s ‘Henriad’ for innocence” inspired the filmmaker to cast Keanu explained to Vulture, “Americans worshipped
street hustlers, with Reeves’ Scott as its Prince one big power punch.” But that just wasn’t
Hal. Should anyone doubt Reeves’ abilities Reeves’ style.

98 AUGUST 2021