In His Own Words

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Piotr Forkasiewicz

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

For Bill, Mike, and Karen



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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

December 10th, 2009:
Kelowna, BC.

Talking with Doug Biden about his experiences that resulted in the awarding of a Distinguished
Flying Cross in World War II, and his post-war career in the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Gerry: Doug, how about you just kind of think back to when you were a young kid and what
made you think you wanted to join the Air Force?
Doug: I had a cousin who was in the South African Air Force at the first of the war, and he came

to visit us I think in about 1935. He was
military. He eventually was killed in a
Spitfire after the war, coming down to
find a place in the cloud and….drove
her into the ground. I suppose that was
my initial idea.
Gerry: How old were you then?
Doug: Oh, I guess I’d be maybe, ten or
twelve.
Gerry: Then when you were what…
sixteen…you applied for the Air Force?
Doug: My father gave me some flying lessons at one time. I wasn’t doing too good at school,
and I guess it was kind of a bribery thing but anyway, if I passed my year he would give me
some flying lessons. So I think I took six flying lessons in an old Puss Moth. The only thing I
really remember in that was my first spin….going around.
Then, I wrote the provincial exams which you had to write at Grade XI, but I only had Grade X. I
passed them, so then I dug out an old birth certificate and made a couple of changes on it.
That’s the piece of paper that got me in the Air Force.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: How did you make those changes?

Doug: Ink a writer crayon. (smiles)

Gerry: Like white-out?

Doug: Yeah…they still exist too.

Gerry: So you were sixteen when you were sworn
into the the Air Force?

Doug: I’ve got to correct that a little…I think I must
have been close to seventeen, because I know I
was in the Air Force by September 1940; now that
would have me just seventeen.

Gerry: You were born in August, weren’t you?

Doug: Yeah. I don’t really remember if we had to
sign up, wait awhile….seems to me what they
did…they probably gave me medicals and stuff in
July. And then you had to sit and wait a couple of
months until all the tests came through. Then they shipped you off to Manning Depot. You
spent the next six weeks just getting outfitted and running up and down the railway tracks.
(laughs)

Gerry: Where was that located?

Doug: At Manning Depot, Brandon, Manitoba. So we moved a long way from Moncton to
Brandon. That was the No. 1
Manning Depot at the time, and
they were just getting ready to
open Toronto.

Gerry: So, from No. 1 Manning
Depot what was your next step in
the Air Force when that was done?

Doug: We missed Guard Duty; that
was the next step but we missed
that because they were getting the
various flying stations open, and
we went right from there to Initial
Training School in Regina…in the
old Normal Building there.

Now you were only there about three weeks, and what they did there was make their selection
as to whether you were going to be Pilot, Navigator or Air Gunner. So, we got allocated as
Pilots and went off to Initial Training School at Prince Albert.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: So, when you went to Regina and took that three weeks training…evaluation…were you
flying a Tiger Moth?

Doug: No…no flying there at all. A Link trainer…to see how you adapted to flying blind.

Gerry: That was your first experience doing
that, even though you had some flying
experience, you’d never done that….

Doug: That’s right.

Gerry: How many guys would have been in
that class with you?

Doug: I would say about twenty. This is
where they selected where they wanted
you…a pilot, navigator or air gunner. The
demand was pretty high in those days. I
suppose every pilot wants to be a fighter
pilot.

Gerry: So they told you after that first three
weeks in Regina that they wanted you to be a bomber pilot?

Tiger Moth Doug: No, I still wanted to be a fighter
pilot, and I had recommendations of it too,
but again, they have to fit you in where
they need you. We went up to Prince
Albert, and this was Elementary Flying, on
a Tiger Moth.

Gerry: So, once you were finished in
Prince Albert, what next?

Doug: Well, at Prince Albert you’re strictly
pilot on pilot, being trained to fly. I think
you did about 80 hours and then you got
your wings.

Gerry: That was all on the Tiger Moth?

Doug: I started off with an instructor called Coombs. There was another instructor there called
Rollie Melish, and he was from Moncton. I guess they just switched and he took me under his
wing and he became my trainer. He was eventually lost, I think in one of the (unintelligible)
raids. I look back on him…he was a good instructor.

Gerry: How long did it last…at Elementary?

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: Elementary, I would say lasted about eight weeks.

Gerry: How did you feel about what you were getting into…were you excited?

Doug: Oh, I don’t think you were worried at all about
what you’re getting into; you wanted to fly and that was it.
There was the opportunity. I don’t think you joined up to
wave the flag, or patriotic duties at all. All your buddies
were signing up, going somewhere and I think, you just
went along with it. I don’t think there was any great
patriotism or anything.

Gerry: Did you notice any Americans up here at that
time?

Doug: Eventually, quite a few. The Americans were all
brought in, and if they were trained they were pilots and
they were given commissions immediately, and they filled
up most of the Staff Colleges…Staff Schools.

As an example, No. 2 ANS, which was the Air Navigation
School at Pennfield Ridge was manned by 90%
Americans, and a few of us too. We were just there in a
training role at that time, trying to teach Navigators how

to get around at night.

Gerry: So you were flying aircraft
that Navigators were training
on….

Doug: Yeah. We were flying Avro Anson
Ansons at that time. See, at the
first of the war we used to take
pilots and send them overseas
with about 120 hours. They
would do some training in
England and they’d be in
combat. Well, all this is building
up your experience and time,
and it’s good time, and good
experience.

Gerry: After you got your wings, what was your next assignment?

Doug: Well, some of them were kind of mundane. One of them was flying Fairey Battles,
towing drogues. The Fairey Battle was a fairly big aircraft, and heavy and…could smash
anything. I had about four months of that…at FINGAL. This is what they call, “Fighter or
Fill”….because you’re flying these Battles, the young fellas in the back shooting at the drogues,

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Fairey Battle or you’re
towing the
Brunswick). I had a year of that; all you’re doing is drogues.
flying these young Navigators around New So that
Brunswick and Prince Edward Island to try to train lasted
them to where they think the are. (laughs). about three
or four
months. I
was sent
down to
Pennfield
Ridge, and
this was a
training
area for the
RAF. (New

Bolingbroke

Hampden

Canada. You’d pick up an old Bolingbroke, or And from there, I had a job I really liked. We
a Blenheim and you fly it to Ottawa. Then you had an outfit called, 124 Ferry Squadron,
might pick up a Hamden aircraft and fly it to and it’s job was to fly aircraft all over
Winnipeg.
Bristol Blenheim
Then you’d pick up something else and fly it to
Lethbridge. So you’re never in the same bed
twice. It was a very interesting job. There
weren’t very many navigational aids; basically
you’re using the old ‘iron beam’…the railway.
You come up through North Bay and into
Kapuskasing and across the north. I had a
year of that, and that was good experience.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

You could pick up a Hampden and fly it to Hurricane
Lethbridge. Then on the way back, they were
building Hurricanes at Fort William…we could
pick them up and fly them to the east coast and
they would build up our OTU or be put on a ship
and sent overseas.

Gerry: When you were doing the ferrying, was
that mostly daylight flying?

Doug: Yes. Almost entirely daylight. The flying
at Pennfield Ridge was, I would say about 75%
night flying, because it’s easy enough to find
your way in the day, but harder in the dark.
(smiles)

Oxford

Then you went overseas…which I did in ’43. We went by convoy, and the convoy was about
twelve or thirteen days. A Wolf Pack got us on the way out and it sunk several of our ships. The
only thing I remember there is standing out on the deck with your grey coat and your Maye
West, and freezing. (smiles) When you get to England, there’s quite a regimen of training to get
back into the system.

You go through what is called Advanced Flying Unit, which were done on Oxfords. Then you go
to an OTU (Operational Training Unit) which happened to be Wellingtons. These were pretty
obsolete aircraft, really. After that you went to an OTU where you got ‘ crewed up’. Then you
had to go to a Conversion Unit to go onto four-engine, and from there you went to the
Operational Training Unit and ended up on a squadron.

Gerry: How long did that process take once you got to England?

Doug: I’d say about six months.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: Pretty busy every day….
Doug: Oh yes…yeah.
Gerry: So that took you to about
1943?
Doug: Yes. I think I ended up in the
squadron in September ’43.

Wellington

Gerry: And what was your squadron?
Doug: 428. Four-Two-Eight was called the “Ghost
Squadron”, and the reason was that so many people
had given up the ghost. You know, you went to a
squadron and…you asked me once, “Did you make
friends?” No, you don’t make friends,

because….you’re friendly with your crew,
but….another crew comes in, he’s only
there for maybe a week or two weeks, and
then he’s gone…you never even met him!
So you didn’t make big friendships.
Gerry: You hung out with your own crew
but didn’t really get to know the other
crews.
Doug: No, that’s quite true.
Gerry: And that was intentional, you were
saying….
Doug: Well, I just think that was the way it is; a new crew would come in and be assigned one
of these ‘tomato cans’….the whole crew would live in the same building….and then, two or three
days later, they’re not there. And you never even knew what their name was.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: What was your recollection of your first combat mission? How did that feel?

Doug: I think, more “invigorating” than anything; it wasn’t a case of being particularly scared.
My first few trips were into the battle of the Ruhr.
These were all pretty heavily defended targets. You
went on what they call “Second Dickie” trips…two of
them, to fly with the experienced crew….just to see
how he ran his show. I think you learned from that; I
think crew discipline is very important.

Gerry: That was really stressed in your training, I
suppose…crew discipline.

Doug: I would think so….I would put a…you know,
the chap rate was pretty high back in ’43 - ’44 but the
people who survived seemed to be the ones that had
good air discipline. You know, not nattering on the
RT….not goofing off and saying, “Oh there’s another
one shot down over there…”, and this type of thing.
On some of these raids, the planes would be
dropping at the rate of maybe one every thirty
seconds. So the sky is pretty well filled with flaming
debris and stuff, and as I say these anti-aircraft guns
are going off at night…you get a burst, and then you
have a little black cloud in there….well, the black
cloud scares you more than the burst….if you see the
burst it’s too late! (laughs)

Gerry: So, those first missions were on
what aircraft?

Doug: A Halifax.

Gerry: How did you like the Halifax?

Doug: I liked it. It’s nowhere near the
aircraft that the Lancaster is; I would
say it’s a much more stable aircraft.
The thing is, you had three or four
levels of bombers.

The Sterling is down there around

13-16 thousand (feet); the Halifax is up

there around 18,000. The Lancaster’s Halifax

up around twenty-two. So, the higher

you are, the better it is. There’s always

the possibility of someone dropping a bomb on you, and that did happen.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Sterling Gerry: And all these missions
were at night….
breakthrough, and supporting the army.
Doug: Ah….yes and no. After
D-Day, we had some daylight
trips. They were very short
trips…you’re maybe over
enemy territory for half an
hour at the most. What you
were doing primarily then you
were knocking out V2 sites,
and V1’s. You’re also trying to
support the Cannes

Gerry: So when did you move to the Lancaster from the Halifax?

Doug: When we went to Pathfinders (as part of 405 Squadron)…
they were selected to go to Pathfinders at about twelve trips….and
ah…so now we’re into another squadron. That squadron was
actually an elite outfit; they were picking the better crews, and….the
jobs were tough. Eventually the Pathfinders would be responsible
for marking…putting down their various markers to bomb.
Eventually they had a master bomber, and all he did was fly around
this thing. Well that’s kind of a hairy outfit too! He’d say, “This
target indicator is off…bomb five-hundred yards to the west”, and
this type of thing, and you’re bombing became much more accurate.
It was very poor, say in ’42…very poor. You went out; you couldn’t

find your target….even if
you found something it
wasn’t the right one. It
was very difficult…there
were no (navigational)
aids as we recognize aids
today.

Gerry: Yeah…just visual,
maps and….

Doug: Yeah, and part of
the visual…he just kept
building up one way and
tearing down the other. You know, we had a thing called H2S which was, I suppose airborne
radar, and you could look down and see rivers, and cities, and stuff…well, that was fine; that
was a great help. But then the Germans put a homer where they could home in on the device.
Well that wasn’t very good either. So it was just one thing after another.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: Trying to stay a step ahead.
Doug: Yeah. We had all kinds of different things. They had one called, “Airborne cigar” …and
these were just code names. What it was, it was Flying Fortresses and they had German
speaking people in there that would come up on the radio and give wrong instructions in
German. You know…different things that you’ve never heard of. Another one we had was,
‘Monica’…it was just measures and counter-measures and ah….eventually we succeeded,
that’s all. We lost a lot of crews doing it.

Gerry: When you moved to
Pathfinders from the 428 ‘Ghost’
Squadron…did all your crew go with
you?
Doug: Ah….no, one fella refused to
fly again. When we got shot down,
three of my crew were wounded. The
fella who was the Flight Engineer …
he didn’t want to fly again. And I don’t
blame him (smile). You know, what
happens to him, I don’t know. He’s
probably transferred off the base
immediately. At one time they used to
call it “LMF flak”….Lack Moral Fibre…
but its ah….some people can stand it
and others can’t. I can remember a
young fella who was an Air
Gunner….and every time he took
airborne he got airsick. But he still did
his job.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: Tell me about that incident where you were shot down.

Doug: Well, it just seemed to come out of the blue; there was really no warning. I don’t know, in
retrospect why there wasn’t any warning, because my mid-gunner and tail-gunner, you know
they’re like, watching. But anyway, the first thing we know, we have bullets flying through the
aircraft.

Gerry: Now was this the Halifax or the Lancaster?

Doug: The Lancaster…and quite
a few bullets… I think my
Navigator the next day counted
about 170 bullet holes.

Gerry: Was this when you were
inbound to Germany or
outbound?

Doug: We were outbound. We
had finished our bombing run,
we’d been to Berlin and ah…we
got hit near Osnabruck.

Gerry: Were you at about 22,000
feet…something like that?

Doug: I would be high, yes. The
idea is that you leave the target area as quickly as you can. You don’t want to stand anywhere
where there’s lights on. The fighter made three attacks; he got shots in on each of them. The
fella who was wounded the worst was the Navigator; he got some shrapnel in his shoulder, and
he got a bullet through his buttocks. I think a shell came up and exploded in the wireless set,
damaging one fella in the shoulder and the other fella in the back.

Gerry: One of your engines was shot out?

Doug: Yeah…eventually we lost two engines. One was shot out and we couldn’t feather it for
some reason. We still had control, and about half way out….they used to have an outfit called
Darky….I don’t know whether you ever heard of it or not. Darky was a monitoring frequency
for emergencies, and I think it was controlled by stations along the coast that could interlock.
So you called Darky…and the only reason you called Darky is because your radios were out.
But Darky worked off a black box. And they would come back and give you a course and
distance…if they could plot you. So, we called Darky and Darky came in and gave us a course
to England. I think it was about…sixty miles or something….

Gerry: Were you on top of solid cloud at this time?

Doug: No, we had lost height gradually; we were probably down around ten or twelve thousand.
And then coming in along the coast, we had no airspeed. So we couldn’t figure out….you just
fly by the ‘feel’ of the aircraft. And on two engines…fortunately, both engines were…you know, it

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

wasn’t two on one side, it was one on each side. So you were fairly stable. And then as we
crossed the coast we fired off some Verey lights. You fire off RED if you have a problem. So we
fired off the red Verey lights and suddenly we got a green light from the ground. We don’t know
where we are. And the green light…we just lock onto it and give them a green light and follow it
in and landed.

Gerry: What was the weather like at the airstrip…could you see it clearly?

Doug: There was light fog on the coast, and we stalled once coming through that light fog. I
guess we recovered maybe around fifteen hundred, two thousand feet. Because we’ve got two
engines out, we don’t know what the position of the flaps and wheels are. So the decisions are
made well ahead of time…you land to the right of the runway, and if you’re going to belly-land,
you make sure the runway’s clear. So, that’s basically what we did. We found out afterwards
that the bomb-bay doors had fallen open, we had no wheels, yet we had a fair amount of
airspeed but we didn’t know what it was, just by what you feel it was.

Gerry: Did you know your wheels were…you didn’t know what the condition of your landing
gear was….

Doug: No. And I wasn’t about to
say, “Put it down”. I think you’re
worse off if you have to land with
one wheel down and one wheel up.
But anyway, the belly-landing I
thought, went very smooth. You
know, there was a bunch of dirt
flying by the windscreen and stuff.

Gerry: What airstrip was that?
Someplace you’d never been
before?

Doug: It was called ‘Coltishall’…it’s
one of the big emergency strips that

they had on the coast. That’s what
they were built for…to come back
and try to pick up damaged aircraft.

RAF Coltishall Gerry: So they had emergency
crews on the airstrip when you
landed?

Doug: Oh yes…as soon as we
fired off the REDS and they gave
me a green light from the ground, I
know that the ambulance and
everything’s standing by, and they
know they’ve got an emergency.
So everything seemed to go

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

smooth from there on. The ambulance arrived, took my three or four crewmen to the hospital…
checked them out and fixed them up, I guess. The next day, they sent an aircraft to pick us up.
But as I say, I don’t know what happened to my engineer….he just refused to fly, and….some
people just have to give up.

Gerry: So after that, did they give you some time off, and let you recover before you had to go
back out?
Doug: Oh yeah…(laughs)… We all had a week’s Leave. (still smiling)
Gerry: What did you do then? What do you do with a week’s Leave at that time?
Doug: We used to tell ol’ Herbie…”Show us your wounds, Herbie!” (Laughs)
No, I don’t know what the record would show, but I suspect we were given two weeks Leave
and probably barrelled off to London or somewhere.
Gerry: Then you re-formed up and had to go back out to battle again…what mission would that
have been that you were shot down on? How many missions had you done at that point?
Doug: I think about twelve or fourteen.
Gerry: You were less than…you were only about a quarter of the way through, then.
Doug: Well, they’d run in a system at one time…they would only give you four points for a
major target, and thee points for a minor target…and when you added those up, you had to
have 120…to be screened. Finally, when you reached that, you were finished. Then what
happened is that you got sent to an OTU or some training unit or something.
Gerry: So usually after thirty missions or so, you should be done, right?
Doug: Well, we ended up doing actually forty-one missions. Some of them, as I say, were easy.
Taking out the doodle bags on the French coast…were easy targets; we were only in there
maybe fifteen or twenty minutes…bomb the site and then out. But this was post-D-Day where
you were trying to protect as much as you can….to support the Navy.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: What do you think the average number of missions would have been for a crew like
yours? Do you think you did more than an average number?
Doug: I think you have to look at the time frame of it. In 1942 you had to do thirty ops. Thirty
ops into the Ruhr were pretty tough. Then they brought this number system in, and the crews
hated it, because you used to come back and say, “If I got shot down am I only a third shot
down?” So, that system didn’t last too long.
Gerry: So after your twelfth mission when you got shot down, and you went back to work, were
there any other memorable missions that stand out in your mind?
Doug: Oh, yeah…there’s a few. Like we got shot down, and the next time we went up we went
to Berlin…and this time we got shot up. Got shot up before we went to the target. Machine gun
bullets were coming around, and it cut the oxygen to my mid-rear gunner. So he passed out
Okay, what we had to do from there was to get portable oxygen bottles to him to keep him
going; we don’t know whether he’s wounded or what. You just hear big bangs in the aircraft…
you don’t want to hear big bangs (laughs).
So, that was the next trip. Another night we got what they call a ‘hang-up’. A hang-up is a 500
lb or 1000 lb (bomb); it didn’t release properly. So okay, then we had a fighter attack. So, we
tried to maneuver around a little, and this 500 lb. bomb falls off…but it’s rolling around the
bomb-bay. So every time you’re on your left side, it’s banging around on one side; every time
you’re corkscrewing on the other side….it just sounds as though you’re getting hit every time.
Kind of scary. (Laughs) Eventually, you can open your bomb doors and get rid of it, but by that
time it’s made an awful mess of the bombing circuits and stuff. And you know, we were
fortunate after that…we did quite a few runs; everything seemed to go fairly smoothly. Some

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

people would go out and
they’d just have trouble after
trouble. It’s just the luck of
the game, I guess.

Gerry: Some crew would get
shot down on their first
mission.

Doug: Oh, yeah. I think the
sad thing about it is you never
know what happened to
them….because they’re just
missing and six months later
you got some information on
them.

Gerry: So, were they just trying not to demoralize the crews by not giving them too much
information?

Doug: I think so. In retrospect I would say yes…because really, at the squadron level there
was no thing up there that said, “John Jones was lost last night”, or so-and-so….you just never

knew. They just didn’t come back. And the
only people who really knew were those who
were running the Operations centre, and the
Squadron Commanders. Well, I don’t think it’s
information you want to publicize.

Gerry: When they gave you a briefing before a
mission, did they characterize missions as
easier or harder than most, or….was that
something you concluded on your own.

Doug: No, I thought the pre-briefings were good.
They’d point out the different flak areas, and
where the fighter squadrons were. You’d never
know where they’d be scrambled so you didn’t
really know when you were going to meet all your
fighters. No, I thought the missions were
exceedingly well-done. You had your MET man
up there; you had your Operations people talking
about where flak was. It’s easy to point a finger
and say, “There’s heavy flak there”, well it’s not
heavy if it doesn’t hit you. I think in the daylight

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

raids….I would sooner do night. The
daylights are more scary because those
flak bursts come up and they explode
and the big black puff ball’s out. Well,
you look from a distance and you wonder
how you’re going to get through that stuff.

Gerry: How many hits with flak would a
Lancaster take to bring it down?

Doug: I never got shot down by flak.
Just the two fighters that gave us the
mauling. But you know, like…if we’re …
doing a mining run, say to Helgoland,
well Helgoland is about 400 miles out into
the North Sea. In winter, your chances, if
you’re hit, of getting back are just about
nil.

Gerry: Did many aircraft had to ditch into the North Sea?

Doug: Again, we never knew. They had what they called the ‘Goldfish Club’ and..anyone who
survived in the North Sea or the Mediterranean would be given this little gold caterpillar. No, I
think things went as good as they could. There’s an awful lot of pressure on the higher levels to
bomb certain targets. You know, like Harris…he wanted to do ‘area bombings’, where the
USAAF wanted ‘position bombings’. There’s much said for both.

Gerry: So, you were the youngest in your crew…

Doug: Yeah, they’ve all passed on.

Gerry: You were about twenty when you started to fly Lancasters, weren’t you?

Doug: No,….I’d be about ah……

Gerry: I think you were twenty when you got the DFC.

Doug: 1943? I’d be about twenty?

Gerry: Yeah.

Doug: Yeah. Okay.

Gerry: So you were only twenty years old; what would some of your other crew be…25? 22?

Doug: Yeah. You know that picture that’s on the wall above the filing cabinet?

Gerry: Yeah.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
Doug: Open the back of that, and there’s a telegram in there, and the telegram is from Bomber

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Harris, which is kind of a nice thing to have.

Gerry: Yeah.

Doug: I think he was exceedingly good to his men.

Gerry: Did you meet him?

Doug: No, I never met him.

Gerry: But he sent you a personal telegram after that mission?

Doug: Yeah.

Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris Gerry: So after a mission like that, do they give
you the Distinguished Flying Cross a long time
later, or immediately….?

Doug: Oh, much later. It just depends on what the
circumstances were; I didn’t get mine until I was in
university. I got called one day to go to Halifax for
the presentation; well this is maybe two years after
the war. But the thing is, the telegram is
immediate…something you got within two or three
days. Open the back of that and have a look at it.

Gerry: I will. So after you finished your 41st
mission did you stand down then because you’d
completed all your missions, or it was the end of
the war…or what was it?

Doug: No…it was the end of tour. The only regret
I have there is my replacement Engineer….I had to
get a replacement after we were shot down. He
ended up with about 26 trips, so he had to do
about three or four more; unfortunately he was
killed in a bombing raid over Paris. I don’t know
where we would have stood if we’d have said,
“Okay, do you want to do another three or four and get him finished?” You know, maybe we
should have. I don’t know. I feel…..I feel sorry that we lost him. (voice breaking) But you would
have to put something like that to every individual of the crew, and if one fella said no, that
would be it. But that’s kind of sad, when you see a fella, you know…just about finished his tour,
and goes ’n buys it….

Gerry: I guess that happened quite often; you get killed either on your first mission or your last.
…And you don’t know which is worse.

Doug: I guess you get killed in any, it’s bad.

21

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
Gerry: So after you finished your tour, that was the end of combat and that was…1944?
Doug: Yeah. Yeah, that’s the end of combat.
Gerry: And from there, what was your next assignment?
Doug: Well the next assignment, I went over to an OTU, which is an Operational Training Unit,
but I wasn’t there very long. I got sent over to what they call a Battle Defence Course, and I
became a Flight Commander with about ten or twelve Hurricanes and Spitfires in my Flight.
Our job was to go fly around Six Group; do mock attacks on Bombers and critique them as to
how they handled themselves…you know, whether they’re breaking too early, or breaking too
late or, how their corkscrew is….It was an interesting job. And I enjoyed flying the aircraft.

Lancaster, Spitfire, Hurricane

(Suspend conversation on Thursday, December 10th)

22

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

(Resume conversation on Friday, December 11th):
Gerry: Yesterday we were talking about after the tour was up, you spent some time doing
some training in England…training other crews….?
Doug: Well, what you were doing is you were making mock fighter attacks on the bomber
squadrons, to try to teach them how to do the corkscrew and get out of the attack. Because the
thing is, if they move too quickly, before the attack starts, then the fighter can follow them. We
had this flight of Spitfire IX’s, and Hurricane II’s which we did the job with. It was a very
interesting time of flying ‘cause we all wanted to fly fighters anyway.
We made one movie for J. Arthur Rank. They were able to get a Junkers 88 and they were
doing ground strafing; the aircraft would fly by, and they’d blow up bits of the ground simulating
a bombing attack. We had an old Anson that we took the pictures of them doing this and
eventually, J. Arthur Rank’s movie was produced…I don’t know what it was called.
Gerry: That would be 1944?
Doug: It would be close to 1945….more in the spring of ’45. I came back from overseas, I think
in April of ’45.
Gerry: When you were doing that training…mock-ups and stuff, were you flying a Spitfire part
time?

Spitfire

23

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: Oh yeah. No problem with that because I’d flown Hurricanes in Canada, ferrying them

from Fort William to the east coast…so I had some fighter pilot experience. The Spitfire was a

beautiful aircraft to fly…..very responsive, very quick…I can’t think of any real fallacy with it at

all. The Hurricane seemed to be

heavier, not as flexible an Lancaster, Spitfire, Hurricane
aircraft…it did a good job but the

Spitfire did the real job.

Gerry: So when you did that,
were there Lancasters up flying
with crews and you were attacking
them, or….?

Doug: We didn’t know who they
were; they would just call up the
Unit and say, “Okay, we got two or
three crews we want to train
today”, and we’d meet them at
Point A or Point B and do the
fighter or fill at that stage. The
only thing I remember is that the
crews tended to break too early…
they’re not waiting for the attack,
and consequently if they break too early, the fighter can follow them. It’s a standard procedure
called a corkscrew, and that’s exactly what it is…you dive down very quickly…turn…the only
place that you’re really vulnerable is in the immediate turn, because you’re standing still, really.
We’d just do these mock attacks with the fighters.

Gerry: So that lasted several months, and then you went back to Canada?

Doug: We came back to Canada; we came back on a troop ship; I don’t remember what the
name was. I guess we were out maybe six or eight days at the most, and they just unloaded us
at Halifax, put us on a train and moved us through to Montreal which was the Discharge Unit.
So basically, your Air Force career is finished at that time. I can remember what they paid us
was in $50 bills…I don’t think I’d ever seen a fifty dollar bill. So suddenly you’ve got your
pockets stuffed with fifty dollar bills and you’re in Montreal (smiles)…you went and spent a little.
(long smile)

24

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: When you got to Montreal you were effectively out of the Air Force?

Doug: When you got to Montreal they shipped you to what they call an “R” Depot…a re-pat
depot, and that is where the discharge papers went.

Gerry: This was after the war had just ended?

Dough: Yeah. So really, now Harvard
you’re no longer in the Air Force.

Gerry: So you had to re-join.

Doug: Yes. What they did in
university, they put us in a special
class…Class E, I think it was…and
they would provide you with
summer employment and you went
to university. So, I got shipped out
on that, and I ended up at 6RD
which is No. 6 Repair Depot at
Trenton, to be trained as a
Communications expert. Well I
knew nothing about
Communications…absolutely
nothing.

But while I’m there, the Air Force started to expand again. They wanted a whole bunch of
Harvards brought out of service and put back on the line. They sent me down to Fingal to put
about five hours on each aircraft that was coming out of service. That’s all we did, was put five
or six hours on the aircraft, flying holes in the sky, and if they stayed together and kept going we
accepted them. It was an interesting time; one thing they also had at Fingal was a POW camp,
and they had quite a few Germans and Italians there. I remember taking one up for a flight
once. But it was sort of a mundane type of flying…you were just boring holes in the sky for…
five hours.

Gerry: Local flying?

Doug: Pretty much. I used to be able to take an aircraft and fly it home to Trenton on the
weekends….sort of a benefit. We probably put on fifty, sixty hours on the aircraft…in that job.
And then, you’re back in the Air Force; you're still a Class E, or whatever it was but you are
flying aircraft.

For the next ten years, the whole Air Force expanded again…the Korean War. From there I got
sent…I guess you would call it an instrument flight course; it lasted about three months, and
you’re just flying Beechcraft on instruments all the time. They used to have plates of cardboard
that they could put on the canopy and it would blacken out…a few different pieces go together
and became quite black. So that was a good course…it was a real training course, that.

25

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Then from there, I

got transferred to

408 Squadron and

that was the

Lancaster

Squadron which

was doing the

mapping of the

Arctic. I never did

that much Arctic

flying but what we

did do with the

survey which

started around

Winnipeg and

gradually built up

triangulation up to

The Pas and up Avro Lancaster 408 Squadron

north of there. So

you had to fly this

‘trimetric photography’, and what you were doing …you were measuring the triangulations of

these ground sites and then lay the map down on top of it. It was a big project; it lasted about

ten years and went up right through The Pas and into the Dew Line and back down at

Edmonton. Before that, the maps had nothing on them; they were just maybe painted yellow, or

sand-coloured but not many good features. So that was a job that, what they called the “White

House” did. They collected all the film and they laid it all out, and then made their maps out of

them. Before that there was just nothing up north; you know, you were still talking the early

50’s.

Gerry: What altitude were you flying when doing the mapping?

Doug: You’d be pretty high…you’d be at 24, maybe 28 thousand, but you had to have perfect

weather…you couldn’t have cloudy weather. Sometimes you’d take off and the area you

wanted to do, you

couldn’t do. But

anyway, they had two

Lancasters on that,

and we were on Sub-

Detachment at

Winnipeg and then

moved north of there.

They had a couple of

old Canso’s that would

fly these ground crews

into sites, and they’d

set up the transmitters

and paraphernalia,

and they’d live there

Canso for four or five days

26

Lt.-Col. Biden, Mountain

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

while you did the triangulation of the sites. We did some other things too. Like there was once
we had to do a surveillance of Hudson Bay, whether Hudson Bay froze or not because Hudson
Bay weather affects all eastern townships. So you’re stoogin’ along Hudson Bay at about 500
feet. It doesn’t freeze across; there’s always some open water there which is steaming and
seems to be bubbling away. I think your prop changes pitch a couple of times too…it seems to
be.

Gerry: That would have taken you through the first year or two after the war….

Doug: Yes. Then, as I say…in 1950 they sent me to England to train as a test pilot. The school
is quite exclusive; it trains all the British (and British subjects) test pilots. Right after the war
there were all kinds of new aircraft being tested and coming into the picture. I think it was
probably a fairly dangerous time, particularly for the British because they kept losing aircraft…
and pilots. But anyway, you spent a year at the school and…they didn’t teach you how to fly;
you’re supposed to know how to fly before you got there. They had, I think, twenty two different
types of aircraft at the school.

They had Lancasters and a bunch of crazy ones, like a Widget…you know, where you sit up in

the middle and Gypsy Majors on either side. They didn’t have too many modern aircraft; we

flew the Meteor, and we flew the

Vampires; that’s the only two jets Avenger
they had at the school. We flew

Navy aircraft…Avengers, Fireflys

and different types of Transport

aircraft like the Devon Dolphin.

These were all interesting aircraft;

most of them were pretty docile

but flew. The thing is, you’d just be

given a piece of paper that said,

“Go out and to stick force for “G”…

or, “Do stalls” or, “Do spins”. Then

you’d have to come back and write

up your observations. There was

RCAF Vampires

27

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

CF-100

28

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

a lot of paperwork to it, and a lot of studying. At the end of ten months you graduated from the
school.

Then I got sent back to Canada and got into the Central Experimental & Improving
Establishment, our research organization. We served about five years with it. After that, you go
off to a ground job, and I was a Flight Safety Officer at Air Defence Command. Planes were
going in all over the place, right from Comox to Chatham. We’d have to do an analysis to see if
you could find out what caused the crash. It was an interesting place too.

After that tour, I got sent up as C.O. of Bird. Bird is a small station about 80 miles from
Churchill, up near Thompson. Thompson didn’t exist in those days; it eventually got built up, but
anyway, you’re part of the mid-Canada line. It’s not what I recall as a pleasant number, but
you’re dealing with civilians, and civilians don’t like being ordered around.

After that, I went back and did another tour at CP and eventually became Chief Test Pilot for

about two years. Every project was different; some were interesting, some were mundane, but

there was always something to test or

evaluate, and it was quite interesting.

One I particularly remember, we were Yukon

doing some tests…this is on the Yukon,

the big transport.

Anyway, what we found is that when
you’re flying, say around twenty thousand
feet, the controls started to freeze and you
couldn’t move the stick. So you’ve lost
elevator control. What we suspected, and
what we eventually did…we took the floor
up and put some heating elements in
there with a Herman-Nelson, and tried to
simulate it. Actually what was happening
was, there was a water line going along
the longerons on the right hand side. At
altitude, it was leaking and it would go off into a very fine spray onto the longeron. Eventually it
built up ice, and then the ice wouldn’t go through the slots. Anyway, we found out what happens
and why… we were able to fix it. But you know, it would have been one of those accidents in
which you never would have known how it happened or why. This is the type of thing that the
whole Air Force went through at Experimental.

Gerry: Tell me about your first jet flight.

Doug: I think my first my first jets were flying Vampires out of Montreal. We had somebody
check us out…a Flight Lieutenant Terry Evans checked us out….and, no big deal, it was just a
marvellous little aircraft to fly. Just went like a whiz-bang. You’re airborne probably before you
thought you were. I didn’t get into any of the century-series jets because now I’m getting too
old.

29

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

They did send me down to DRML to train for the F104, and also I got sent to Edwards Air Force
Base to train on the aircraft. By that time you’re getting a little long in the tooth and you’re not
going to be doing too much active flying from there on. You’re probably up around 40 now.

Gerry: Going back a little bit, tell me about flying the CF-100.

Doug: There’s nothing to talk about there, really. The CF-100 was a nice aircraft to fly. It had a
lot of teething problems which they eventually overcame. As an example, we had them all
grounded at one time because they didn’t meet the standard. The standard was, they were
stalling at about 20 miles an hour higher than what the book said. Well, they didn’t want to
change the book. Another problem you had with them was the torch ignitors. You couldn’t re-
light an engine if you lost one, unless you came down to around 15,000 feet where you had a
little more oxygen. The CF-100 had a lot of teething problems; we lost people which we maybe
shouldn’t have.

One I remember…the flap attachment would fracture, and the first thing you know, the fella’s
flying along, he’s got his flaps down…then one flap breaks away and it lifts up and the other just
rolls him. We lost two or three pilots to that.

Another one was, for some reason the aircraft would tuck at altitude. If you’re up around 35,000
you didn’t have too much air to play with; you either had a high-speed stall, or a low-speed stall.
Anyway, these aircraft, for unknown reasons, just dove into the ground….and both pilot and
observer were killed. I don’t know whether you remember or not, the one that went in to the
convents at New Orleans. This CF-100 came straight out of the night and slowed right into the
convent. Killed at least a dozen people.

But the aircraft was a nice aircraft to fly. We took the first one through to the west; we did that in
December…it was cold, I remember. We had no qualified people so we trained a technician to
fly with me, a Corporal. He was my co-pilot type thing. But you did your own navigating; it was
no problem. I do remember that when we came out of the cloud near Winnipeg, and wanted to
land, we were all frosted up…we couldn’t see. The whole windshield just turned to ice. Well we
scraped it off…opened the canopy a little, stuck your head out a little and were able to get it
done alright. (laughs).

We flew through to Winnipeg the first day; we had a problem with a fuel pump; put on a new fuel
pump and the second day we started her through to Edmonton where it was going to do winter
trials, and the aircraft was left there for awhile.

But no, it was a good aircraft once you got the bugs out of it. Another problem we had with
them was the stator blades, and the compressor blades would interact; well that was pretty
catastrophic. Particularly if you were taking off in the rain and you’re putting some water
through, you would cool one, heat the other, then they’d touch…and that wasn’t very good.
That pretty well lost you an engine. But why these ones went straight in from 30,000 feet, I
don’t know. I have my own theory but, I can’t prove it. I think the aircraft tucks. You’re sitting up
there at 35,000 feet, you don’t have very much air to play with. You either go into a high speed
stall, or you can go into a low speed stall. If this aircraft stalls and starts down, it’s not going to
recover until you hit thicker air, and I think these fellas just rode them down.

Gerry: There were several of those kinds of accidents?

30

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: I can probably name about five or six. The very first one that came out, they said, “Okay,
well we found a valve to an oxygen bottle in the pilot’s desk.” That doesn’t ring very good me.
I’ve flown the CF-100 quite a bit. I’ve tested maybe 30-40 different aircraft…at Malton,
Ontario…to whether you accept them or not.

Gerry: Did you fly the CF-101?

Doug: No. I’m getting old in the tooth now. Lt.-Col. Biden, Cheyenne Mountain NORAD
Gerry: Tell me about working with NORAD.

Doug: I got sent down there for one specific
job to start with, but they changed jobs and I
went into what they called the Assistant
Command Director. Now, he’s the 2 i/c of the
Cave during the midnight shifts, when the
senior generals are not on the dials. In other
words, the Senior Command Director is in
charge of everything; he’s looking at ballistic
missiles, he’s looking at the positions of
submarines, and anything that happens at
NORAD, be it the east coast or west coast,
would all come through the command centre.
My particular job was like 2 i/c, just to back him
up. We did have the capability, and did it once,
to go to DEFCON 3. Well DEFCON 3…I don’t
know if you’re familiar with various DEFCONS,
but anyway they start at 5 and go to 1.

DEFCON 1 is ‘War is imminent’. DEFCON (Photo by Gerry Anderson, 1971)
2…’Take Precautions’. DEFCON 3, and up the
scale. But anyway, we went to DEFCON 3,
and that meant we would man the Command
Post twenty-four hours a day…there was
always a General there then, either the top
Canadian or the top American. I think the
reason we went to that is, we were mining and
bombing Haiphong harbour, and they expected
quite a retaliation, which they did get. They shot down an
awful lot of B-52’s.

It was an interesting job, any sort of stupid or foolhardy thing would come through the Command
Post. One fella called one night and he wanted to cancel a landing on the moon. Well, he’s a
professor…he should know what he’s talking about, but his theory was that when they drove the
LEM back onto the moon it would disrupt, and leak fuel over that particular area.

31

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Well, there’s no wind on the moon, right?…So his theory was that if you try to land on the same
spot you’ll have explosives and you’ll blow up. So you had to pass that information on. NORAD
was a beautiful area and I think it was probably one of the nicest assignments we ever had.

Gerry: Did you work for NORAD before that, in Ontario?

Doug: Yes, I worked for NORAD…I think it was when we came back from France. I was
appointed Director of Northern NORAD Region, Intelligence Officer.

We were a small intelligence outfit; the information would feed in through certain ways and then
be disbanded in certain ways. It was a very closed shop; not too many people had access to it.

One thing I remember…do you remember the Pueblo when it was taken? It was taken by the
gunship, consequently all the codes in the books were compromised, so that creates quite a
problem. I had that job for about three or four years, and part of the job was working on the
Command Post and predicting when the enemy fighters or bombers would show up for the
exercise. So you’ve got information being fed to you from the DEW LINE, the mid-Canada line,
maybe from some satellites, and it was a case of predicting when they would end up in the
fighter area…just a mathematical thing. They’d have these exercises maybe once a month…
with real aircraft. SAC would deploy and then their bombers would come down and we’d try to
intercept them with fighters at our disposal.

Gerry: Did you have anything to do with the X-15? Did you meet Chuck Yeager, or anybody
like that?

Doug: No, the only fella I ever met was Al Shepherd.

Gerry: Were you down at NASA when you met him?

Doug: Yeah. We had a project working out of Ascension Island, and we sent two or
threeCF-100’s down there. We called it a MIDAS program…Missile Intercept Detection System.
They were firing missiles off Cape Kennedy downrange to the Falkland Islands. Our CF-100’s
down there would try to catch them all; as the missiles came in we’d try to detect the missile as
to where it was going to land. We had a team down there for about six months. I never did get
down to Ascension Island…it would have been a nice trip but a long ways.

Gerry: You went down to NASA….Florida…

Doug: We went to Florida. We just went down to follow up on the MIDAS program and it just so
happened that we were there for the lob shot of Alan Shepherd. And that’s all it was, was a lob
shot…it was only about 300 miles out in the ocean.

Gerry: Did you meet him?

Doug: I have met him.

Gerry: After that?

32

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: Yes. I think they came up to the house one night. You know, test pilots are all…a tight
knit group…they respect each other.

Gerry: When you say he came up to the house one night, you mean your house?

Doug: In Ottawa. If we flew into say, Ellington Air Force Base, we’re test pilots, and we’re
treated as test pilots. The same with Shepherd; I think they were just up for some reason
visiting the Canadians.

So June had them all to the house one night. We had a big old dog, and that big old dog used
to sing (laughs). She could probably tell you that story.

Freedom 7 Launch; First American into Space

She put on a certain record of Johnny
Mathis, and I guess the decibels were
too high or something, and anyway that
dog would throw his head back and he’d
yodel and he’d whine…it was something
to see. And these test pilots from the
States…they thought that was great.

Astronaut Alan Shepard

33

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: How did you meet June, and ended up getting married?

Doug: I was stationed at a place called Picton
at one time; she lived in Belleville. We used to
commute to dances in Belleville and that’s
where I met her. Then when I went overseas,
she kept sending me gift packages, and I
guess it just went from gift package to gift
package.

Gerry: So when you got back from England,
you teamed up with her and got married.

Doug: Yeah, we teamed up pretty quick, in
retrospect you know…we didn’t really know
each other, ‘cause we hadn’t spent any time
together other than maybe, two or three
dances and that would be about it. But she
used to go to a lot of trouble, making up gift
packages for us during the war.

You know, I think it was hard on the young
ladies too, because they’d suddenly pack up
and leave their home….and their mother, and
father and move a way the hell off
somewhere. It’s not easy; I don’t think military
or police life is what I’d call an “easy” life; it’s
interesting and that’s the way it should be. I
used to wake up in the morning and say, “I
wonder what we’re going to do today.” And
that’s a great feeling. We got married in June
and I ended up going to university in
September and went for three years.

Gerry: That was Mt. Alison?

Doug: Yeah. (Long pause)

I think the older you get, the dumber you get. There’s so many things I just know absolutely
nothing about.

Gerry: What do you mean by that?

Doug: Well, I know nothing about photography. I know very little about cars. I can maybe
replace a drain in a toilet, but these are the things you should know, and do.

34

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Gerry: Well you can’t do it all, and not everybody can learn and do what you did, either.

Doug: No, you can’t do them all; I’ll acknowledge that. I knew a little about airplanes and I
knew what made them go, and what made them stop. When I was in the Accident Investigation
part of Flight Safety, I bet there was an aircraft going in once a week somewhere…either
Chatham or Comox. Trying to stop it, or trying to find out why…was a prime concern. (Long
pause)

Gerry: Well that was more important than trying to figure out how a toilet works.

Doug: (Laughs)

Gerry: You were born to do that job, Doug…so you don’t need to have any regrets about what
you don’t know. (Pause)

Where were you when the kids
started to come along?

Doug: We were at Sackville at
university. Billy was born in
Sackville; Michael was born in
Ottawa. Our daughter came
along about ten years later in
Ottawa.

You know, they were all young
veterans; they built very nice
accommodations for the
veterans at Mt. A…nothing
fancy but like, one or two
bedroom bungalows type thing
and most people lived in those.
We were very fortunate that we
had accommodation…I think we
paid $22.50 a month for it…
ridiculous. We used to eat for about $45.00 a month. I was getting probably around $80.00 a
month from the Dept. of Veterans Affairs, and June had a job as a secretary for one of the
professors, and she was getting about $60.00 a month. And that was the extent of your income,
but you lived on it…you didn’t starve. We didn’t eat out very much either.

Gerry: You had a car?

Doug: No. We had no car in those days; I don’t think we got a car until we got moved back
west to 6RD and ended up in the Air Force again…then we probably got a car. We lived in
Sackville for three years and yet we didn’t see much of the country…again, no transportation. I
had an uncle who lived down in Amherst, only about ten miles away. We used to hitch-hike
down to see him.

Gerry: Your first job after you got out of university…what was your first assignment?

35

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: The first assignment was back in the Air Force, in the telecommunications field. I can’t
say I really wanted that…it’s just a stop-gap until I can get flying again. And because all these
Harvards had to come out of storage and had to have time on them, the opportunity was there.
Somebody had to fly them, that’s all. You’re just boring holes in the sky, maybe five or ten hours
on each aircraft, and that was it.

Gerry: What was your job in Europe, when you went to Paris and other places in Europe in the
60”s?

Doug: When we first went to Paris, I worked at the underground Command Post of (SHAPE). It

was situated in a cave about five or six kilometres from SHAPE HQ. But the cave was

interesting because the cave had been quarried out back around the 1800’s to build most of the

public buildings in Paris; it’s a sort of

a nice, brown sandstone. They just

used this old…the Germans used it S.H.A.P.E. Headquarters, Paris

during the war to store tanks in, to

hide them. Eventually SHAPE went

in there and set up communications,

and a Command Post.

The Commandant, who happened to
be General Lemnitzer at the time; he
would show up, maybe once a
month for some type of exercise to
keep in touch with the different
organizers. It was a very
sophisticated place. We actually
had control of the release of nuclear
weapons. You talk to a lot of
people…there was never any
nuclear weapons in Europe. Well
there never was, for Canadians…
the Americans kept control, and we
could release individual weapons on
individual cities if we had to. It was
a very responsible job.

Gerry: What was your position

Doug: I was actually in charge of
the crews. I think we had five
different crews, and commanded
the Command Post on a twenty-four
basis. And then when we got kicked
out of France…basically, we had to
get out…and moved to Casteau,
(Belgium)…I was sent in with a
research group and in charge of the

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

party to set up the new Ops (SAT). So we designed it, set it up, plugged things in and it worked.
I assume probably they’re still there today…exactly the same set-up.

Gerry: What did SHAPE stand for?

Doug: Supreme Allied Command Europe. SHAPE still exists to a great extent today, because
it’s SHAPE that’s in Afghanistan.

Gerry: Is SHAPE part of NATO?

Doug: No, it’s an independent organization. See,
right after the war when Russia was pushing us,
they formed the organization called SHAPE…the
Supreme Allied Command Europe. There were
very few countries in it in those days. Since then
we’ve brought in Poland, Austria, Bulgaria,
Holland…countries who are now mixed up in
Afghanistan…it’s part of SHAPE. I think the
people who actually run Afghanistan would be the
SHAPE commander; I don’t know who he is now.

Gerry: I guess we haven’t discussed your
experience in Kamloops, yet…

Doug: I don’t think there’s much to discuss
there…it’s a routine C.O.’s job…doing a little bit
of everything. I think to be a C.O. of any station
is a good thing; it’s a good career move, it’s
interesting. You might have to go to too many
parties, or something like that, but those are
minor things. The time at Kamloops was good.
There was always something doing on the base…

nothing too catastrophic.

The various assignments I had, I think the only one I did not like was this C.O. of Bird, where
you were C.O. and yet you weren’t C.O. It’s just an odd setup for the military to get itself in;
civilians are doing all the work; they’re still Bell Telephone people, and some of them just are
very Bell Telephone…they don’t want anything to do with the military. But the military closed a
contract to them, and they have to supply the services. But it’s an odd job.

Gerry: Stepping way back in time, can you remember when you first saw an airplane and first
got this fire in your belly to fly?

Doug: Not really. As I mentioned earlier there, my father was a jobber, and companies like
Ganong’s, or Morris…they had their own planes. There were no big air shows in those days,
but there were air pageants, and a few of these planes would come in to the local area, fly for a
few days. I guess my father probably got passes for something to go get airborne.

Gerry: Do you know what aircraft you flew in, the very first time?

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Doug: Not really, I think it was a Puss Moth, but I’m not
sure…just a small aircraft.
Gerry: What were you, about twelve years old?
Doug: I don’t think I’d be any older.
Gerry: Do you remember thinking at that time, “This is for
me!” ?
Doug: (Smiles) No, not really. Planes always fascinated
me.
Gerry: Were you living in Moncton then?
Doug: Yeah. We lived in Moncton all my life, really…all my
schooling.
Gerry: Well, we’ve covered quite a bit, Doug…in the the last couple of days.
Doug: (Smiles) I don’t know what you’re going to do with it all…
Gerry: Is there anything else you can think of, that you would like to bring up, or that we didn’t
discuss?
Doug: No, we’ve pretty well covered the gamut of my career.
Gerry: Anything post-career that we didn’t mention, that stands out?
Doug: Once I retired, I played lots of golf…and enjoyed it, and had a lot of friends. We almost
lived at the Country Club. We don’t go out there to eat very much, but still, it’s a nice facility to
have. It’s really not that expensive; I think a social membership is about $300 a year, that’s
all…that’s nothing.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
Gerry: Beautiful course, isn’t it.
Doug: It is. And you know they built that new clubhouse, and they’ve done an awful lot of
renovations to improve it. No, I think it’s one of the…it’s not as good as some of the other
courses as a challenge. You know, like Galago’s Canyon is a much more challenging place.
But no, it’s a beautiful facility. (Long Pause)

Gerry: Well, if there’s nothing else that you can think of, I guess we’ve king of covered it.
Doug: Yeah. No, there’s nothing…the only thing I really would have liked to have had is a
fishing cabin up somewhere (smiles). I’m not a hunter, and I wouldn’t want to hunt, but it would
be nice if you had a cabin up on a fishing lake somewhere.
Gerry: So if there’s one thing you didn’t do quite enough of, it’s fishing, right?
Doug: I enjoyed fishing, and I’d get out maybe half a dozen times each year. But then my
fishing buddies kept dying off. You know I can name probably four or five fellas I used to go
fishing with, and eventually they just didn’t exist. No, I’ve never had any desire to own a home
on the lake…I never had a desire for a lot of money either. We’ve always paid our bills, we
have enjoyed life; we haven’t maybe travelled as much as we should have; June would like to
have travelled more. But she won’t travel now; I don’t think she’ll go anywhere by herself.
Gerry: Well, you’ve travelled quite a bit in your life.
Doug: Yeah. Well, we’ve lived in some nice places; we’ve always had good accommodation.
You always needed the money out of one house to get into the next one, but you just
kept….moving along.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
Gerry: How would you summarize your career; if you think right back to the beginning, through
the end…how would you characterize your career and how you feel about it.
Doug: Just interesting. Interesting and quite acceptable. No regrets.
(Long pause)
Gerry: Thank you, Doug.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

ADDENDUM ONE

When researching for this project, I came across a 1945 report by the
R.C.A.F., which was one of a series of annual operational reports on
action seen by Bomber Command. On page 63 is a description of the

January 30, 1944 mission for which F/O Biden received the
Distinguished Flying Cross.

Coincidentally, on page 67 of the same document is another reference to a Lancaster crew from
Leaside Squadron that was lost at approximately the same time at the end of January after a
mission over Brunswick. Among the crew members lost was W/O David Lyng (Bomb-Aimer) on
the aircraft piloted by P/O. A.D. Rae.

This is significant to me, even more so by its
coincidental occurrence with the Biden mission reported
within four pages of each other. At the time of his death,
W/O David Lyng was married to my mother, Phyllis.
They had only been married for a week or two before he
shipped out overseas, and that was the last she saw of
him.

A sad irony having profound implications for me, is the
fact (told to me by my mother) that after they were
married, David had no Leave to take her on a
honeymoon, so went AWOL for a week. Upon his
return, his ‘punishment’ was to be assigned to another
squadron.

As fate would have it, his new squadron only lost two
aircraft (out of twenty), one of which was David’s. His
original crew completed all their missions intact and
survived the war.

W/O David Thomas Lyng and my mother Needless to say, my mother eventually re-married…to
on their wedding day, 1944 my father, another R.C.A.F. (Aero Engine mechanic).
Had her first husband not gone AWOL, I would not have
been here (and you would not be reading this).

Pages 41-44 below are the relevant pages describing
action by Biden and Lyng, respectively.

(The full document can be seen online here):

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/docs/RCAF_Overseas_vol2_e.pdf

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
42

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
43

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
44

CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009
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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

On August 21, 2015, Bill and his sister Karen joined my

brother Ron and me for a visit to the Bomber Command
Museum at Nanton, Alberta for a ceremonial four-engine
night-run of their Lancaster bomber (FM 159)
commemorating the aircraft’s 70th Anniversary.

On a selected
evening every
summer, a night run-
up of the engines is
scheduled in order to
re-create a scene that
happened countless
times as Bomber
Command crews
dutifully launched
themselves into a
very hostile night sky,
not knowing if they
would return. A total
of 55,573 aircrew
were killed in action;
nearly 20,000 more
were wounded or
became prisoners of
war.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

A granite war memorial wall is featured at the site, with the name of all 10,659 Bomber

Command crews lost in WWII. Included, of course, is the name of W/O David Lyng:

F/O Biden, W/O Lyng, both mentioned in same RCAF report of actions with Bomber Command, January 1944

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

ADDENDUM TWO

Doug Biden’s story would not be complete if there were no mention of events immediately

preceding his passing on December 24, 2009.

I spent the better part of two days with Doug on December 10 and 11, while he was resting at
hospice. During our previous visit in the summer, at my urging he had agreed to tell his story on
video tape. I told him I wanted to preserve the details of his R.C.A.F. career for the benefit of his
extended family members who otherwise may not fully comprehend the level of heroism and
sacrifice that he and thousands of other young airmen displayed to preserve freedom.

So, he wasn’t surprised when I came into the room with a camera. After the recordings ended
on the evening of December 11th, and it was time for me to leave, I was painfully aware that I
would never see Doug again, at least not this side of eternity. I realized I could not leave him
without approaching the subject of his eternal destiny, because I believe we all have a choice to
make. Sometimes we just need someone to give good reasons for the hope we can all
have….simply by placing our faith in the personal, loving God we read about in the bible,
particularly the “Gospel” of Jesus Christ, which literally means He brings, “Good News”.

I was aware that Doug was a self-made man, and wasn’t a particularly ‘religious’ person. I was
also aware that he was a man of high principles and exemplary conduct. But, as with all of us,
there eventually comes a time when our principles and conduct can only take us so far; we need
something, or Someone, who is able to take us all the way ‘home’.

So, I just took his hands in mine, bent down and said, “Doug, I want you to know that Cyndy and
I are praying for you.” His reply was predictable, “Well, you know I’m not very religious”, he
said. I answered, “That’s o.k., Doug…neither was Jesus….in fact, some of his harshest words
were said about the ‘religious’ people around him, many of whom were hypocrites that adhered
religiously to ‘The Law’ but showed no real love or concern for others.” My sermon in a
sentence ended with a request of Doug, “Will you think about it?” He replied with moist eyes,
“I’ll think about it.” Before leaving, I said, “Doug, if you make that decision but can’t say
anything, just give Bill a ‘thumbs up’ signal, and I’ll know what you mean.”

Later that evening, I asked June if they had ever attended church on a regular basis and/or do
they have any clergy they can call upon. She replied that Doug wasn’t much for church, but that
they had attended a United Church years ago, and “Doug really like the pastor…Albert Baldeo.”
She said she’d heard he was sick, and had retired several years ago. “Should I try to call him?”
she asked. I suggested she do so.

Within minutes, June was re-introducing herself to Albert, and explained she would like to put a
friend on the line with him. I took the phone and introduced myself, and the fact I was there to
see Doug as he’s in hospice. Albert’s reply was, “I have been a United Church pastor for nearly
thirty years, but don’t hold that against me….I’m a born-again Christian!” I knew exactly what he
meant.

I told him about my conversation with Doug that evening, and that I thought it would be very
important to Doug if he were able to see him.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

Albert said he and his wife Beryl would be pleased to meet with Doug the next day. I found

him to be a very warm, caring, and good-natured man who was delighted to see his old friend,
and grateful for the opportunity to do so.
Albert later reported that they had two great visits with Doug, had prayed with him and that he
had made his peace with God. Albert was smiling broadly as he recounted how Doug pointed to
him and said, “I want to go where you’re going!”
[Not long afterward, Albert, who had been chosen by his community, summoned the strength to
carry the Olympic torch for a certain distance as it passed through Kelowna on the way to the
winter Olympics in Vancouver. He passed away in the spring of 2011, not long after, more than
once, he addressed the subject of his own pending demise, in his weekly newspaper articles.
He explained that his physical battle with heart trouble would eventually take his life, but that
because of Christ, he knew his eternal home would be in heaven.

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CONVERSATION WITH DOUG BIDEN - December 10 - 11, 2009

After I returned to Calgary, I kept thinking about Doug, until a week later I felt compelled to

write a letter to him. It occurred to me that he would need some more encouragement as he
was about to ‘walk through the valley of the shadow of death’. I sent it through Bill, who printed
it and immediately went to his dad’s bedside to read the letter, which reads as follows:

December 19, 2009

Hi Doug,

I’m busy editing the video from last week; I think it will be a priceless account of your
RCAF experiences that will be enjoyed by your family and friends who may not have
heard your story in such detail before. Thanks for letting me do that.

You’ll recall I said some things to you about how important it is for all of us to make our
peace with God before we step into eternity. I don’t want to be unduly persistent but I
would like to follow up with a few more words that I hope will encourage you.

Upon thinking about your life as you recounted it, especially your description of the night
you brought your Lancaster and crew to safety despite losing two engines, hydraulics,
instruments, radios, and with three wounded on board, a couple of observations strike
me as it relates to the circumstances you are facing now.

You mentioned that you had a back-up radio called “Darky” which would enable a
bearing to an emergency airfield despite the loss of conventional communications.
When you “called Darky” you were thus guided toward the safety of England and
avoided probable death that would likely result from ditching in the North Sea.

The way I see it Doug, you have a similar lifeline at your disposal now. Just as you had
faith that “Darky” would lead you home, you have an opportunity now to avail yourself of
the only hope any of us have when facing death.

While confronted by multiple dangers that night, you said it was fortunate the two
engines that were unserviceable were on opposite sides, so there was no asymmetric
instability to contend with. Similarly, our bodies eventually fail us in various ways as life
ebbs; in your case it’s good that while your body (like your aircraft) is experiencing
numerous failures, your mind remains clear and stable to this point. Importantly, you
still have an opportunity to consider the choice that is still yours to make.

But just as on that heroic night, delay can be perilous. The challenges you faced were
formidable, but your training and coolness under fire enabled you to utilize all the
resources at your disposal in a timely manner. Your decisions and actions that night not
only saved your own life, but that of your crew.

50